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another music video collaboration

Discussion in 'Collaborative Work' started by personiam, Nov 16, 2009.

  1. personiam

    personiam New Member

    Hi VJ's of the world

    Here's another exciting project i produced. It's really not so commercial as the other one (however not umimaginable), but i love making these kind of tracks.

    Some keywords for this one to trigger your imaginations are:

    Edgy, mysterious, open minded, dreams, shaman, elements, Epic, High Energy, Power, High level of conciousness, mind over matter, awakening, Expansion, crossing borders, beyond space and time, NO softy NEW AGE bs, other worldly, capturing, intrigueing, journey, empowering, secret. impersonal beyond reach but omni present. Not relgiuous, tribal, Cult, exploration, confrontational, and not too psychedelic.

    I would like you to come and check out the track here ;-)


    If you can get me a film by next week monday it would be awesome. I'll post it to all the major video sites. I like deadlines.
    Also be sure to print in your credits stuff . We all should get something going from this.

    If the song starts to make more than 10.000 grant 1000 bucks to whoever can help with the visuals in an awesome way.

    Send me a pm to brainstorm !

    Thanks 4 ever!

  2. PCProject

    PCProject Moderator

    how much 'would' this sell for/how many units would you expect to be sold?

    is it backed by a pro-label or distributor?

    would there be an EU legally enforcable contract for payment?

    Would this be your 2nd release? as the 1st appears only to be on youtube and I am not really sure if that counts

  3. SteveG

    SteveG Downstairs for Dancing

    I can fulfill one of your requested keywords personiam....."Dreams" :D I like short deadlines too......with a pay cheque :lol: There seems to be a problem with your web site? Like PC project asks...are you signed? if so to what label?
  4. personiam

    personiam New Member


    Hi guys, thanks for your replies. Please check your private messages for details.


  5. PCProject

    PCProject Moderator


    seems a bit of an intangible tangle to me after reading my PM

    and my onboard BS detector is starting to twitch a little

    so thats a definite no from me
  6. SteveG

    SteveG Downstairs for Dancing

    Thanks for the info Eric. It was the devonpax dot com web site link that seems to be dead. Just as DJ's and musicians are complaining of their product becoming valueless I feel the industry should then be all to aware of the value of the visuals you request. It sounds to me that should you only receive 9,999 sales and the VJ who has attracted people to your music on Youtube gets nothing? We are more than capable of using major international artists and publishing our own details with anything we choose to upload. Youtube etc is all about visuals and visual impact without something decent, unless your music is superb will not be listened too. I feel you should be offering the VJ you choose a better deal. VJ's will then perhaps start sending you watermarked demos for you to choose from.
  7. personiam

    personiam New Member

    new model

    Thanks for your reply. I'm interested to hear what you think, and I think this could be an good topic to elaborate on.

    I wasn't aware that copyrights were nowadays were deemed transferable to VJ's at such an extend. But, I'm all ears. Whatever works right?

    If indeed Vj's were to draw so much attention to music, and as well sales in music it would surely be inevitable to bring in vj's in the copyright splits.

    I'm happy to do such an experiment, so why don't you come with a proper proposition for a deal you feel many Vj's would be happy with and we'll see what we can make happen.

    Music business has changed a lot, and everyone is searching for new ways at all times. So why not do this experiment?

    We're all creatives in the end.
  8. SteveG

    SteveG Downstairs for Dancing

    "We are all creatives" I'm afraid has worn a little thin:) It's a business deal. You've identified that a good video may attract people to your music and help sell it. We sell a product you want, you buy the product you want. Personally I would never work for a % of sales or other similar offer. Whether you offer £300 or £300,000 is down to you and your budget. Make the offer according to your confidence in your sales. Make the offer and the VJ's will supply you with the demos otherwise I feel they will see through this as an empty offer and not bother. As they say in the Dragons Den....I'm afraid I'm out. Good luck and hope you find someone Eric but would advise you re-think your strategy.
  9. personiam

    personiam New Member



    I didn't realize this offer came across as a possible offense or BS or however you interpreted this. I was aiming for great amateurs that didn't have much music material to work with or possibly professionals that really really dig the music. Payment if it works out well. You guys are obviously beyond that.

    Thanks anyways, and i wish you all the best.
  10. SteveG

    SteveG Downstairs for Dancing

    I'm certainly not beyond that...or offended personiam. What I do like to see however is a fair and realistic offer or deal. Would you produce a good progressive Dance track for me to sell please, it must be dark, musically accomplished and professionally mixed, at least 6-8mins in length. If it sells 10,000 copies I'll perhaps give you a 1,000...:) That's all I'm saying personally. If your expecting a good visual then you should be expecting to pay for that service. If your offering the possibility to an inexperienced VJ then be clear in your offer. As I said earlier Young and inexperienced VJ's can upload good tracks by international artists and publish their own details to attract others their own service. What your offering is no real incentive.
  11. PCProject

    PCProject Moderator

    well on that basis give me a tune by next Monday I will make a video and when (if) I have shifted 10k dollars worth (of profit) I will give you a whole 1000 of them

    see how it sounds now?

    I worked on a DVD for a label that is 'possibly' the biggest in its genre and have a good idea of the numbers shifted and personally think your figures on the financial returns a little over optimistic

    sorry all I can really suggest is modify your business model and approach to avoid pitfalls such as us!
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2009
  12. personiam

    personiam New Member

    if you're that good why not.
  13. PCProject

    PCProject Moderator

    Mainly the fact I lost interest back at post 5

    my previous post was to turn things around and show how it read from my side

    sorry there is/was no intention to offend if I did
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2009
  14. personiam

    personiam New Member

    best of luck!
  15. subpixel

    subpixel the pixelator

    I think, if Devon is just 19, that he's doing quite okay, and can be forgiven (applauded?) for his enthusiasm.

  16. vjpixylight

    vjpixylight AKA Will O' The Wisp

    What it really all comes down too how good the audio track is. If your tracks are hot, you will not have any problem finding the video artist/VJ's to do it...
  17. vjair

    vjair Making Shapes

    no offence, but as someone with my pulse fairly well on the breaks scene, that wont sell enough to make the figures you talk of. pretty much no artist in that scene ever does.
  18. fata alex

    fata alex analog VJ

    So he's being optimistic with his numbers? what starting out artist or business operator isn't?

    This was posted in the 'collaborative' section of the forum! so why is he being challenged for not offering enough payment?
    Im getting a bit fed up of seeing people who come and join these boards, wanting to work WITH vjs, getting flamed for not offering faultless contracts, business plans or elaborate profit shares, etc...

    I think this really gives the vj community a bad name, if you're not interested in working collaboratively, dont read/post in the collaborative section of the forum. I know the vj as artist/technician/production house debate is a long and elderly one, i dont want to bring that up, but in much of the art world, it is common to almost exclusively work collaboratively. So while the more experienced vjs are trying to make a living and dont want work for less than x amount, which is fair enough, there are going to be hundreds of 'artists' that just happen to be working with the moving image as their chosen medium, many of whom will be eager to collaborate with other artists, and if there is any hope of payment then that is only a bonus. Really guys, a little less jumping down peoples throats please!
  19. subpixel

    subpixel the pixelator

    Agreed. The well-heeled / high cost people should know when not to stomp on people.
  20. unjulation

    unjulation Moderator

    totally agree mate its why i usually dont offer jobs hear, you only get slagged of if the t's aint crossed and the i's doted and you carnt offer a rider of only blue mm's and the rest of it
  21. SteveG

    SteveG Downstairs for Dancing

    Bull$hit I'm afraid Alex. A true collaboration would see things done fairly and on an even playing field not on a basis of you give we take. This approach was not done by the artist himself. 9,999 sales and the VJ gets nothing...that's no collaboration and someone on the forum should be questioning cowboys when they come trying to take advantage. You do not see every post asking for free or cheap VJ cover being "flamed" I can point you towards at least one on the forum now that has been left completely untouched because it is clearly genuine. Although offers like this are challenged the poster can always explain or go into more detail, likewise VJ's who wish to do the work are free to do so.
    Just as cowboy approaches are challenged some good jobs are also challenged, Tom has challenged one of these only today. If people don't or elect not to post the full and truthful details then they will face questions like this and that I'm afraid is common sense and good business sense. making good challenges gives the impression that we actually know what were doing here and not a bunch of school kids with a laptop playing around in this game.
  22. PCProject

    PCProject Moderator

    Im with Steve on this too

    I wouldnt dream of going to a music producers forum and suggesting the same deal

    I bumped into a 'proper' releasing music producer friend in town earlier today and happened to mention this approach to him and my did he laugh when I suggested he could shift 10k units of his own next release - IF somebody is going to open with something that is patently such an outrageous piece of fantasy accounting then I feel we have every right to question the numbers

    However I would point out that I would feel guilty IF I had been rude to the guy and as I havent I dont
  23. fata alex

    fata alex analog VJ

    Yes, the thought of shifting 10k copies of a self-released anything is laughable, to me it would have been more 'insulting' to us vjs if he'd said he'd give us 1p on the pound for what he made back, or something like that, but essentially, this is another amateur producer looking for an amateur vj to collaborate with, obviously he's not gonna phrase it like that himself, but the way you all react its as if MoS is trying to pull a fast one over on you (again? for some). All your battling for fair pay for vjs is wonderful, i do admire your steadfastness, and solid resolve to fight back against people taking advantage, but you need to be able to see when it's essentially someone innocently trying to use any incentive they can think of to get someone to make them a video.

    So essentially what im saying is, dont give the guy such a hard time, if you felt the need to get invovled in his offer of collaboration then i don't think it should have been any stronger than "mate, you estimation of selling 10k copies is a bit unrealistic, either arrange a fairer profit split (even tho you both know there will be no profit) or just make it a non-commerical venture"

    Sometimes the world isn't trying to swindle you.

    Or maybe im the one who's naive....
  24. john01

    john01 5 quids worth of italics

    yes you are, people who make these kinds of offers often have very short memories
  25. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    Hmm well i sit firmly on the fence with this stuff. I'm all up for good collaberations when they come along but this is clearly nonsense. Offering a payment of £1000 if the track makes £10,000 is rubbish. What if the track only makes £1000? why can't the VJ get £100 then?

    Other ways that would seem to be fair would be a fixed fee offered for the video, then its just a take it or leave it kind of offer. (this is standard for pop-promos - the music video producer is normally paid a fixed fee regardless of how well the track does)

    If the musician is keen to support the person he is collaberating with then maybe a fixed fee with a bonus payment if the track makes £5000 might be more reaslitic.

    as to the frosty reception that people get on VJForums sometimes then yes i do agree with Alex to a degree, often people jump on threads when simply ignoring them / allowing others to take up the offer might be better. In this case though I feel it was good of people experienced in the breaks scene to point out that he's unlikely to make £10k off the back of this track, and as such any video producer is likely to make nothing at all from the deal.

    The "we haven't got any money now, but we'll pay you if we do really well" approach is so very common with artists. In my experience it is never true. Its much more the case that "we'll take what we can get for free, and as soon as we decide to spend some money we'll go and find someone who values their own work more than the guy that been doing it for free for us so far".

    The trouble with Steve's approach of jumping on this stuff as soon as he spots it is that it discourages people from offering any work on the forums. i wouldn't want to try and offer a low paid job or collaboration on here as the potential for getting instantly flamed is far too great. Sometimes people have to learn the hard way and whilst I admire Steve's principles of defending the VJ against exploitation sometimes what he sees as exploitation others might see as a good opportunity. Sometimes the only way to get to know when a bad deal is being offered is to of suffered from taking up bad deals yourself and as such maybe Steve could sometimes take a back seat and let newer VJs learn for themselves when it comes to what's a good and bad deal? After all at different levels of experience the same deal can be good or bad depending on what you'll get out of it. I've learnt much more from taking on some jobs which turned out to be a bad deal than i have from all the jobs which went really well and paid good money!
  26. SteveG

    SteveG Downstairs for Dancing

    OK Tom. Fair points I suppose from you and Alex. No more questioning for the foreseeable future from me. If we'd rather see the inexperienced taken advantage of in order to learn then I'll leave these crap offers alone. Personally I feel however, that the more often unrealistic or unfair offers are challenged here in public like this then the less likelihood there is of having them and gradually it will force all who visit to perhaps re-visit their unfair idea and force them into improving it. As I say, if I wish to challenge from now on it will be done in private where I have no doubt I shall not receive replies. I do not wish to see as you fear people who are fearful to post due to an over robust VJ who wants only a fair deal;)
  27. john01

    john01 5 quids worth of italics

    Very well put.

    There is always a limit to what you can achieve with no budget, unless you just happen to have a pro level camera, studio, lights, some beautiful people who like you and a load of time. But usually no budget looks either generic or cheap, if not both. If the idea is good you can get away with cheap execution to a degree, but as a rule as thumb the guy that does it for money will always end up with a better looking product, and the people that have the jobs that pay money will gravitate towards that (and nick your cute idea).
  28. housefull

    housefull New Member

    Thanks for the info Eric. It was the devonpax dot com web site link that seems to be dead. Just as DJ's and musicians are complaining of their product becoming valueless I feel the industry should then be all to aware of the value of the visuals you request. It sounds to me that should you only receive 9,999 sales and the VJ who has attracted people to your music on Youtube gets nothing? We are more than capable of using major international artists and publishing our own details with anything we choose to upload. Youtube etc is all about visuals and visual impact without something decent, unless your music is superb will not be listened too. I feel you should be offering the VJ you choose a better deal. VJ's will then perhaps start sending you watermarked demos for you to choose from.
  29. asterix

    asterix IMAGINEER

    Missed this thread but can I add anyway - collaboration is about working together towards a common goal.

    The benefits to the dj are promotion, a value add to their stage show and obviously revenue from sales. It should be a two way street - and it should have been offered to the vj unconditionally. You can't just say oh well you're part of the collaboration is only worth something if the dj makes lots of money / promotion etc first.

    If someone came in and said hey I want to develop a stage show, vj's will come on tour with me and we can share revenue on video sales on an agreed % then that sounds more like collaboration.

    But then again - I've never seen it here on the forums...
  30. pomoproject

    pomoproject PO-MO

    Changing the Subject - World-Wide VJ Awareness Day

    There is a group of about 30 vjs across Canada, Brazil and Chile interested in choosing a day to host a world-wide guerrilla vj show. If you're interested in becoming involved, please contact me: Meghan Athavale, info@pomoproject.com

    At this stage we are discussing how to share content and what day would be the most appropriate. Any feedback will be gratefully accepted. There are some very amazing artists involved at this point, and it will be an exciting event to be a part of.

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