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Famous Ettienne De Crecy visuals (Exyzt crew) ripped off by MTV?

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Donnie Darko, Nov 14, 2008.

  1. Donnie Darko

    Donnie Darko pixel jockey

    Found this video on the blogosphere:

    [​IMG]
    found here

    Seems MTV have copy pasted the idea / style / you name it for this Killers gig from this Ettiene De Crecy concert:

    [ame]http://www.vimeo.com/693800[/ame]
    (More about this De Crecy gig written here)

    Okay so, does anyone here have any contact with Exyzt crew (France) and / or know if they were responsible for this Killers gig? If they were not, I feel very sorry for them indeed as they have been well and truly RIPPED OFF!
  2. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    ripped off? copied? inspired by?
    whats the difference again?



    the killers example is quite a lot better IMHO - maybe it's the same people behind it with a better budget? or maybe it's a rip off? either way it's a great idea and one that was bound to be copied / or to inspire others to do similar work.
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 14, 2013
  3. vjair

    vjair Making Shapes

    i actualy quite like what theyve done with the idea tbh. although it shares parralells to the Ettiene De Crecy version, they have developed it and put in some of thier own ideas. so to me, although its not 100% original ( but what is nowadays ) i wouldnt say its a rip off, id say it was inspired by.
  4. vanakaru

    vanakaru I've given money to VJForums

    I am going to use this as well in January 09. Maybe pyramids instead of cubes.
  5. Donnie Darko

    Donnie Darko pixel jockey

    [​IMG]

    ?

    :p
  6. vanakaru

    vanakaru I've given money to VJForums

    See? My point exactly!
    BTW I like De Crecy one better. No cheesy popular visuals, lot more eloquent and simple thus more powerful as a great visual idea.
    Killers for me is like an other MTV visual noise creation. These hearts are definite turn off!
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2008
  7. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    What is originality? (Discuss)
  8. vjpixylight

    vjpixylight AKA Will O' The Wisp

    I still think it would be cool to see this done with tessellating hexagons, but it might be a little to much a project... The pyramid looks sweet too!:D
  9. mowgli

    mowgli collapsing wave functions

    Although I believe that nothing is sacred when it comes to creativity I hope this was done by Exyzt as if I was them I would be gutted to see this. I really don't see any evolution from the original idea. Adding a few more cubes is as creative as adding yet another blade to a razor. I wouldn't call it "inspired by" but ripped off. In any case as I've said, nothing is sacred.
  10. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    Umm they added significant amounts of lighting, made it a lot bigger, put each band member in a different box, improved the video content considerably, added additional LED side screens with synchronised content.

    It's different enough that if it was done by Exyzt I would be praising them on the considerable improvement of the whole thing from the grotty techno version, rather than criticizing them for repeating the same idea for a different client.

    when the first video was posted people here spent a good couple of weeks discussing how it was done and saying how they would like to copy the idea!
  11. thomase

    thomase VJ Wunderkind

    still would love to know how it's done... I like both actually.
  12. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    it's just a 2d projection on the front surfaces of the screen - all the 3dness is an optical illusion (this is much easier to see in the MTV video as the camera motion doen't affect the perspective which it would do iff it was in anyway real 3d) The clever bit is the use of lighting to make the 3d boxes with the band members in obviously be cube shaped - the brain then fills in the gaps and makes you think that you can see though the screen to tthe outline of the rest of the cubes when your actually just looking at a wireframe 2d projection.
  13. Aalto

    Aalto VJing sucks.

    I don't know if the guys from Exyzt did the MTV installation, but in my opinion, this one is really worse than the original one... Of course, it's obvious that they put more money in it, and they just made it as crappy as the music it has been made for...

    I think the guys from Exyzt listened reallly carefully to De Crecy's music, and then created this structure. When I see the video, the connection between the nature of the visuals and the music seems very clear to me. In the second video, the only thing I see is that some guys tried to re-use this idea, and trying to make it more spectacular, they just made a random MTV-style installation... (that still looks impressive, but meaningless imho)
  14. Rovastar

    Rovastar /..\

    They didn't rip the content they 'ripped' the concept. Completely different things.
  15. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    I hold completely the opposite opinion - i thought the first installation was meaningless and really quite dull - one idea stretched out way too far. It was a cool idea but totally failed to expand / progress at all. (i also thought the music was dull and meaningless though so maybe it was really connected to the music!) The MTV example has progression and development of the idea condensed down to a single 4 minuet song, the graphics have direct relationship to the lyrics of the song (not just the text but the ECG / Heart beat graphic too) all in all it's a much stronger piece that works far better with the music and has much more development of the basic idea.
  16. mowgli

    mowgli collapsing wave functions

    I completely disagree with you Tom but I can't be bothered explaining why.
  17. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    well very constructive - you just disagree but you don't want to actually have a discussion about it (but you still want to say you disagree???)

    I'm not saying that i'm right and your wrong - i'm saying that in my opinion the MTV example was better developed and more connected with the music (the music itself has a more direct meaning though so it is perhaps easier to connect to than the non figurative techno of the first example)

    I stand by what i said in the thread discussing the Exyzt installation when it was first posted here - the idea is good but it is not strong enough on its own to be the only visual concept with no lighting at all for a 2 hour DJ set(or all night or however long it was) it needed to be expanded for it to stand up - thats what the MTV show was - a great expansion of a good concept, condensed into a single song performance.
  18. REBELOVERLAY

    REBELOVERLAY New Member

    its real nice but could whoever it was picked a shitter band than the killers..

    i thought about elvis when i seen this, jail house rock
  19. thomase

    thomase VJ Wunderkind

    well first of all, thanks Tom for explaining the concept - it was pretty much what I thought as well. As a side note: I really don't see tue point discussing wether the music is good or shite - thats really a matter of taste.
  20. crustea

    crustea New Member

    The MTV show is a complete rip off Im affraid.. A very bad "copy and paste" of a great concept.
    The Killers contacted Exyzt after seeing their cube installation, to do a copy of De Crecy's structure, but the Parisian crew didn't want to redo the same thing again, and then proposed to create a new and different project.

    The Killers didn't like the idea of being creative, and they awswered to exyzt that they would copy it and produce it anyway, with the exact same visuals and content (they didnt mention that they would do a poor mapping, add awful 2D hearts, karaoke texts, equalizers, and a playback song to top up the performance).

    Lawyers are working hard at the moment to make them pay, and I really hope that this will cost them more that what they gained from this rip off.




    The show is actually 55 minutes long. There are also strobes and DMX lights around and inside the installation, creating animated shadows all around the space, and lighting is the core of the whole concept. Projection is only light isnt it ?

    After seeing the live show, im sure you will admit that the quality of content production (in my opinion the best "projected optical illusions" you can see), the diversity of effects, the synch and rythm of every single visual element, and the unity of the whole performance is pushing up the visual potential to the next level.

    Not that I especially like De Crecy's music, but I'm really glad when a visual experience is stronger than the music accompanying it.



    I'd be tempted to add that watching exyzt youtube vidz on your 640x480 128 colors screen doesn't garantee a very good experience..

    just kidding Tom :) :) :p




    ps: If you ever see exyzt's performance, Id be interested to know more about your views, and why you think the show isnt "good enough".
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2008
  21. Kyle

    Kyle "Hello my VJ friend"

  22. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    Well there you go - they had the opportunity to do the work and turned it down. That's the trouble with being a precious artist. They could of taken on doing the job for the killers and (possibly) done a better job of it. They could of expanded the idea and made a really great installation - a band like the killers at the MTV awards could of got into moving truss installation and had the boxes that the band were in physically move within the video mapping. Boxes which rotated in the X axis would of allowed the band members to move though the structure and would of changed the places where the holes in the screen were for example
    But instead they went all moody artist and said "no we are not going to make you the installation that you want we will make you something else instead. So they lost the job and then are cross because the band got someone else to do the WORK.

    VJing for bands is a job - your paid to do what the bands want. Sometimes they pay you for your ideas and concepts and give you pretty much free reign to do what you want, sometimes the band has a lot of input into the ideas and specifically requires you to do things which you might not think are the best idea. If you want to get work with bands at the level of the killers you have to do what they want.

    You miss the point about the elements the killers added to the visuals - the hearts and "equalizer" are not cheesy generic visuals - they are directly related to the song "Human" - the "equalizer" is actually an ECG scan of a human heart beat. The only text used in the piece is the word "Human" which is a song lyric but also much more than that. I agree that the mapping was not 100% perfect, but i would love to see you do better in the same circumstances (they were just one act at an award show on a single stage. they would of had a very short get in to build the structure and align the projectors, they then would of moved the whole structure to the back of the stage and had to get it back into position in a very short changeover, they would of had no chance to realign anything as the show was live - projecting a line up pattern in front of such a large audience and live TV cameras is not acceptable.)

    So it's pretty sad that Exyzt didn't do the work. They really inspired a lot of people with their video. But I feel they turned down the opportunity here and have only lost out because of their own preciousness. Some people are destined to be the down trodden artists who's ideas are always stolen and reused by the commercial world. Other people will embrace the opportunity to get their work out to a bigger audience. More people will of seen the MTV installation in one night than saw De Crecy for the whole duration of the tour.
  23. Donnie Darko

    Donnie Darko pixel jockey

    I really don't agree with this sentiment, personally

    Saying they should have gotten over themselves and taken the job.. your attitude is treating VJ's like their just workhorses should do anything they're asked of. It really seems to be undervaluing VJ's as true artists.

    Should a band be requested to reproduce a song?
    Should a graphic designer be requested to reproduce a poster?
    Should an industrial designer be asked to reproduce a chair?

    The Exyzt cube was a totally unique creation.

    How about this.. if U2 ask UVA to remix their Chemical Brothers visuals.. or Red Hot Chilli Peppers ask Ali Demirel to copy his Richie Hawtin visuals.. and both VJ's refuse.. is it okay to take the same concept and merely perform minimal tweaks?

    Would you personally have any moral problem with an artist asking you to copy another VJ's visuals?


    VJ's are no different to musicians, artists and designers. Imo.
    And intellectual copyright should be respected and honoured.
    And when abused - the responsible party shamed correctly.



    ...does anyone know who developed these rip-off cube visuals?
  24. mowgli

    mowgli collapsing wave functions

    I'm pretty sure that that if Exyzt had been allowed to create something new and bearing in mind the extra budget the result could have been astonishing.
    Someone picked on their concept because it was outstanding but failed to see the fact that half of its beauty and impact relied on the fact that it was pretty unique.

    The original Ettienne de Crecy installation should have been enough guarantee for anyone to trust Exytz to come up with a different piece that would've blown the socks off the one used and push the boundaries even further. Yes they could've agreed to do the same again for the Killers as much as they could've set up a company mass producing cubical arrangements with mapping for the rest of their lives.

    One of the drives of creative people is freedom of expression, when you take this away the task at hand becomes an exercise in monotony which lacks the ability to engage the creator enough to create something sublime.
    Vjing for bands might be a job in some instances but to really weave sound and visuals together into one it should be a collaboration.
  25. Rovastar

    Rovastar /..\

    and


    Again I feel you miss the point here.

    Like I said they copied the concept not the content. The concept, for me, is using the multiple screen to generate a 3d illusion effect. The content is what is on the screens and how it fits together.

    Darko, All your examples focus on reusing others content not their concepts.

    Whether there is a legal reprise for this is complex.

    Can you get a intellectual property rights for such a concept?

    Let's take another example of say bullet time as used famously in the Matrix film. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet_time)

    Could whoever invented this first technique/concept have the exclusive rights to anyone else who uses it?

    Should you get permission if you want to use this concept for creating new content? What if they told you it cost $1,000,000 to do it for a license?

    Patents are one of the few IP rights that would protect this and if they had a patent than I suspect, yes they would be protected. If not it is difficult to be protected.

    I personally think they would struggle winning a legal case here. Luckily they are helped by the fact that the band/agency contacted them first this will show prior intent. Playing the art card is they likely strategy linking the concept to the content. The content is very different from what I have seen, obviously the new creators have been careful there, and I think there is enough differences and deviation in the concept

    Also do you *really* want them to win?

    Here is where it gets complicated......

    If they win they would have exclusive rights for any multi-screen square (maybe more tessellating shapes like the beloved hexagons) installations?

    So you could not use one without permission and they could charge what they wanted for anyone who used it and from the sounds of it they would not like to do this type of installation anyway (they want to move onto something new) so no-one would be able to show it. If a Hollywood Movie company did this (or had the power to do this) you would be up in arms (and rightly so) but not for a smaller artist?

    You could not create any multi-screen display with the illusion of 3D depth.

    IANAL but I think the scope of this is too wide for it to be law so I cannot see them winning.

    Whether or not using the concept is ethical is different question. And personally would have hoped that both sides could have shown more understanding.

    If a client came to me with an idea based on one of my ideas then I would follow it up with a confidence that I would be best person for the job knowing they could go elsewhere.

    I tell you it gets worse when you pitch ideas to people and then they steal them. And this is easier to prove.

    It is difficult to protect concepts in business. You have to do them yourself better than anyone else as others will copy.
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2008
  26. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    That shows how little you understand about commercial working environments.
    Bands are frequently required by their labels to change elements of songs, go though a production process which often involves being told to go and listen to specific other bands and come back with something a bit close to what they are doing.

    Graphic designers almost always work to a brief, for every design you see probably as many as 10 have been rejected by the client.

    If you want to work in the creative industries and earn a decent amount of money you have to accept that you going to have to compromise your artistic values ALL the successful artists you've every heard of have made compromises to get to where they are.

    If you want to limit yourself to work where you have total creative freedom then you'll never work on big events or earn much money from what you do. VJing for bands is a service for the band, so what the band and their management decide is what you do, or you go and look for work elsewhere.

    Exyzt missed the opportunity to work with a high profile act (probably because they don't like the music as much as they didn't want to do the same install again) If they had taken the job on then they could of been in a position to expand upon or change the grid / cube concept a bit. But they were too proud and so they lost the job. It's an important lesson for people to learn - if you get someone who really likes something you've done and they have a lot of money chances are that they will simply copy your idea if you choose not to work with them. This is true across the board.

    Don't ever expect a band at the level of the Killers to come and ask you to develop a brand new visual concept for them, they don't work like that. But if they come and say "we really like this thing you did in the past will you do it for us now?" then your a fool if you say "no i've done that idea now, i'll make you something different". Its arrogant to believe that nobody else can take your idea and work it into what the band wants. Far better to say "yeah sure, i'll make you the next version of that idea" and then convince them into doing a similar but different concept.
  27. deepvisual

    deepvisual visually challenged

    I think the test case for this will be the guiness ad.
    a very similar thing happened.
    ageny asked the original artist to do it, artist said no, agency copied the idea.
    artist sued and lost.


    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 14, 2013
  28. Rovastar

    Rovastar /..\

  29. deepvisual

    deepvisual visually challenged

    I know UVA have done a very good job of convincing everyone that they do visuals for the chems, but this is untrue.

    in fact, I heard a wonderful story from the guy who made much of the Chem's content.
    this is heresay, I'd like to point out, but almost certainly true.

    UVA actually only made a small sequence for the CB's trafalgar square show which was used for the encore, though you wouldn't know that if you watched their interviews. anyway after the gig, the promoter, knowing that someone new had been brought in to do the visuals for the encore, but mistaking them for fat nose george, comes up to UVA and says " great show lads, fantastic visuals, shame about that shit at the end though."
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2008
  30. dontregister

    dontregister New Member

    Right copy

    Ok,

    It's inspired and done well.
    It's a way more commercial approach than the original one by Exizt.

    They sue the Killers ? Well, will it be judged in france where there is a moral right for artist work ? That could change a lot of things.

    By the way, prefering one or the other is a question of personal taste. I'm not fan of de Crecy's Music. But the set by Exizt is HUGE and works perfectly well, and it was a first. So the Killers are second... Sorry for them, you see the digital print of Exizt without their unique touch.

    And we should not judge their decision to work or not for the killers. They wanted to but the band or their producers did not have the good taste of trusting them on something new which means poor prospective regarding the talent they deploy for each set or installation. Go check for yourselves : http://www.exyzt.net/

    .DR.

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