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flash shop?

Discussion in 'The Business Side' started by vj_jasper, Mar 27, 2008.

  1. vj_jasper

    vj_jasper imagination

    hi all, wondering if there is a good flash online shop system out there, either open source, or pay version.. am keen to set up a website to sell my content online.
  2. vdmoKstaTi

    vdmoKstaTi Seems to be Right Now

  3. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    http://www.cubecart.com/ are the two main big free ecommerce platforms. they both have systems for secure electronic download sales but they are php/mysql. flash isn't really that suited to shop applications.

    oh drupal also has some nice shop modules - i'd use them myself - but i'm used to drupal and do lots of stuff with it. it's probably to complex for a simple shop.
  4. asterix

    asterix IMAGINEER

    flash is also bad for seo. But if you're native to it then its not too bad :)
  5. vj_jasper

    vj_jasper imagination

    cheers for the ideas.. will research them all. :)

    the company i sell my loops at at the moment are cool people, however they also sell the copyright with the loop so that ppl can use it in their own productions.. this was a concern for me.. however my art director buddy in sydney told me to stop worrying and just put the content out the for people, no matter how exceedingly good i think the most recent batch of loops are. supposedly in this day and age, i need to be not too precious or protective about my work.
  6. vdmoKstaTi

    vdmoKstaTi Seems to be Right Now

    i agree entirely.. if you do flash sites, you will be lost in the world of text based content out there. SEO is mighty important. Flash is over-rated to a degree.. you can use some functionality, but not for the entire site,- I personally wouldnt advise it.
  7. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    Well are you selling source loops or trying to sell finished mixes / pieces /av tracks?

    if your selling source footage then it is the copyright which is the valuable thing - paying to download a loop which i cannot then use in my own production would seem like a very bad deal to me.

    if your selling whole tracks then good luck to you - most people who make short films and music videos have to pay money to get them seen by people. if you can sell some then great but don't expect it to be a major income source.

    oh and here is a clue for you - your work isn't that good (nobodies is) - don't be so precious about it, either sell / release stuff and be happy that people think it is good enough that they want to reuse it in their own work or don't release stuff.
  8. vj_jasper

    vj_jasper imagination

    Vidmokstati,, i agree .. SEO could almost be referred to as the CEO of net presence development, heh..

    thing is, i made a menu in flash that rotates like a hills hoist washing line in 2.5d actionscript reality, and i am stoked .. it looks awesome .. however i have to get over the flash mentality.
    my one concern is making sure html/dhtml all looks good in all browsers.. plus .. what is the best way to code/design .. photoshop first?
    plus, no frames allowed eh, for SEO?

    sleepytom .. good words..

    hey that is kind of like a compliment, thanks bro :) heh .. yeah in fact every word you wrote is totally on the money. thanks.

    i will continue selling through the people i sell with, they make it so easy. plus they make it worth it for the VJ's selling the loops with copyright included.

    perhaps i will do a series of mix dvd's, and sell them, or just make a website entirely in flash, simply to provide info and examples, with links to the loop sellers, and perhaps amazon for precomposed or mix DVD sales

    because the website is just info and examples, not 'mission critical', perhaps is ok all in flash
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2008
  9. pythagoras

    pythagoras New Member

    These anti-Flash arguments are interesting to me. As far as I see, there is no valid argument against any particular technology, only inappropriate applications of said technology. The question was regarding a store application, not an entire website, and actionscript RIAs (Flex is better than Flash for this IMO) can be well suited to a simple store application under the right circumstances.

    Here's the link to the solution offered above, as that link is broken.

    Last edited: Oct 31, 2008
  10. mowgli

    mowgli collapsing wave functions

  11. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    one word...

    flash is dead - get over it... AJax + php + mysql = functional, good looking, accessible websites.
    using flash as a core technology on the web limits you to PC+Mac clients - things are rapidly moving on now, linux netbooks are quite a big thing these days and the iphone is the defacto standard for mobile browsing. Flash is a proprietary technology (along with air, flex and all the other adobe stuff) sure you can do some cool things with it all but the scope is fundamentally limited by poor take up of the technology on mobile platforms.

    I'm not saying you can't use flash (flex /air) for some interesting stuff - i am saying that it is not a good choice of technology for people who want to have accessible websites for mobile users.
  12. mowgli

    mowgli collapsing wave functions

    Flash is so dead that the demand for flash designers in London has almost doubled over the last year.
  13. vdmoKstaTi

    vdmoKstaTi Seems to be Right Now

    I can only say that it would make sense from business development point of view to make flash sites and charge clients arm and a leg for any changes that have to be done via Flash.

    As for logical explanation of a benefit using Flash, I don't see any...

    Oh look, it makes me feel pretty :)

    right on!
  14. mowgli

    mowgli collapsing wave functions

    You are so missing the point of Flash!
    Yes it looks pretty, but the point is being able to make interfaces that adapt instantly as the user interacts with them enhancing the experience and making it easier and more user friendly. Just compare the user experience of something like Beatport to that of ebay.
  15. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    eBay is hardly a good example of a web2 app though is it?
    look at google calendar or something which actually makes use of ajax in a reasonably sophisticated manor.
  16. evomedia

    evomedia Control Freaks

    Clients think they want flash sites, what they actually want nice flash elements in a standardised php or aspx template, No decent agency that build websites professionally will build a flash only site, as user journey, SEO optimisation and cross browser testing just make a flash only site worthless. And if linking flash to databases the page load speed is a joke. They will produce flash elements but no serious web agency builds everything in flash alone.

    If you want to use flash then use it just for the stuff that needs to be animated, thats it, build your pages in either php or aspx, use flash for making banners or cool elements.

    I use flash alot but all the page build is always via aspx, php or ajax.

    Add to that ALL websites should be DDA compliant now for accesssiblility and flash breaks those regs by screen reader issues and leaves your website open to lawsuits.

    From DDA legal requirements:

    Macromedia is working on getting Flash technology accessible to people who use screen-reading software. But said that while some positive progress has been made, it will be a considerable time before most users will benefit, and even then, Flash may be accessible only in certain specific circumstances.
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2008
  17. mowgli

    mowgli collapsing wave functions

    No one is saying that the whole thing should be done in flash, but outright saying that Flash is no good is a very uninformed position.
  18. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    nobody said flash is no good.

    but flash is very web1 - yeah lets put a load of flash elements in an html table and then do some javascript browser detection and redirect users without flash to a static html based site shall we? Or we could use modern techniques to build a good looking site from open technologies which have been designed from the ground up to be accessible and compatible with a wide range of clients.

    Flash can do some cool stuff - but most flash designers are too designer and not programmer enough - they put form before function and the result is sites which do not work well and are very hard to update. It is much harder to design a good website that uses flash than it is to design a good website which doesn't use flash!
  19. mowgli

    mowgli collapsing wave functions

    Precisely the point "technologie-S" as opposed to technology. I completely understand your argument but again you fail to see something important.

    Without even knowing HTML, Flash enables you to create within one technology or tool a WHOLE website including CMS. Fair enough that there are better and more efficient tools to do this in certain contexts but in cases like smallish websites that need to look good and be easily maintained by their owners Flash is the best tool and currently the best way to simply deliver sites with rich content and small file sizes. My two websites are examples of this. They are fully content managed in a completely custom way to suit my specific needs. To recreate what my websites do using what you describe will take infinitely longer than what it took me. So in many cases for time and budget reasons Flash is the way forward.

    Also you are completely ignoring the promotional microsite and purely artistic side of things.
    Things like http://www.hotel626.com/ which is a Doritos promotion and only works from 6pm to 6am (I recommend registering to see it, its interesting to say the least) use Flash to its full potential but...you need a camera and mic enabled. Again what happens with accessibility in this case? Not everyone has mic and camera so do you consider that bad practice?

    Because of its nature Flash has been the tool that has brought together programmers and designers and in my book that can only be a good thing. There is creativity involved in both aspects but they are of different kinds and compliment each other. That's why 90% of websites out there doing something different with real wow factor are made with Flash as it enables scripters and designers to work very closely together.

    In any case I still think that the web has space for unnecessary eye candy and pointless decorations. Not everything in life is about efficiency.

    Oh! and you can do animation too.
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2008
  20. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    Utter utter nonsense.

    without know any html it is impossible to make anything other than a shoddy single swf website. that's the trouble too many flash designers simply don't understand how the web works. they think they can build websites using flash but the cannot build good websites.

    it's widely accepted even in the flash community that flash is not the best tool for website development.
  21. mowgli

    mowgli collapsing wave functions

    Why would you need any more html than the one exported by flash?

    OK you'll have to look at the HTML if you want to have meta tags etc but it's a mere cut and paste job.

    I'm sorry to tell you that you can load as many swfs and jpgs, pngs, flv's etc as you see fit without EVER touching a single line of HTML

    You've not read half of what I said anyway. I've not said it is THE best tool. I said that it is the best tool for cheap, media rich, creative websites up to a certain size.

    check out http://ecodazoo.com/ and now tell me that you can recreate it in no time using whatever
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2008
  22. vdmoKstaTi

    vdmoKstaTi Seems to be Right Now


    I'm pretty sure you a lovely person, and I bet I'd have lots of fun having a drink with you at the pub, but let me say this. If you create sites that only reflect your own abilities to use them, this will make for a very unbalanced web all together.

    First an foremost, Accessibility of your content for your users in a prime objective not only in the common stakes but also from legal point of view as well. If you place massive consideration for uber interactive rotating models with plenty of key points in files and cute characters as your the one and mighty solution to deliver the message, then you don't get it.

    Im not sure if you are aware of this, but every single part of government office in UK as much as in Australia HAS to comply to AA if not AAA standards through http://www.w3.org/WAI/ for all of its websites . This is a serious matter.

    What's worse is that I constantly see critical navigation systems incorporated within flash which has no benefit whatsoever for the end user
    or even important data which could be read and indexed by search engines crawlers and so forth.

    Flash is an interactive multimedia authoring tool that has its place within the web applications, yet I discourage blind approach on placing all eggs into that basket and building the web which is full of unreachable, un accessible sites.

    As far as seeing number of agencies making a living out of producing such content, then let them dig themselves a hole. Thousands wrongs doesn't make it right. I always will seek and promote content driven material that can be easily created, shared, modified and is accessible by anyone and not by some group of l33t designers.
  23. paranoidkarma

    paranoidkarma ** VISUAL ADDICT **

    anyone remembers html? still alive :D
    i'm more a CSS fan, not the brazilian band...
  24. vdmoKstaTi

    vdmoKstaTi Seems to be Right Now

    HTML is not going anywhere. The current tendency for it to be used as part of templates which interacts with databases structures(normally through CMS) and of course CSS is there to take care of presentation and layout. HTML takes care of div, headers, paragraphs, lists, images, forms.
  25. mowgli

    mowgli collapsing wave functions

    For me balanced means a bit of everything and this includes both AAA standard sites and full blown-download twenty plugins to view- websites.
    Don't get me wrong, I have designed to comply with AAA and have sat through hours of usability testing for certain websites but implying that every single web page out there should be built like this is ridiculous.
    In any case Flash accessibility has improved hugely and it will continue to do so.

    I've never talked about blindly using Flash for everything, that is far from what I'm saying but it is the best tool for CERTAIN cases.

    It sounds like you all come from the Jacob Nielsen school of though in what regards to web matters, I come from the "let everyone do whatever they want with whatever tools they want using as much animation, colours, frills and whatever" school of thought.

    Regarding "As far as seeing number of agencies making a living out of producing such content, then let them dig themselves a hole"
    This includes every single marketing and advertising agency. They all do 100% flash sites when and where applicable.
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2008
  26. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    A 100% flash site is never a suitable option.
    the only people who build such sites do so because they have been given a breif which includes heavy graphical animation and they do not have the budget to provide the accessible content that the law demands, or they are the kind of idiot that has no concept of the need for compatibility with non-flash browsers.

    Flash is a great tool for web based animation with some interactivity. However it needs to be placed into an HTML container for it to even appear on the web, and as such it is only stupid flash developers that would ever build a site without having some fall back content to display to people who cannot see the flash content (and a link to download flash really is not enough)

    The worst trend (which fortunately is on the way out as people learn what can be done with ajax) is the use of flash for the primary navigation of sites which are otherwise fairly basic text based content. This kind of stuff was popular a few years ago and made the web a much harder place to use.

    the webs primary function is to disseminate information through the medium of text. Flash is not a good technology for this and so it will at best be a peripheral to the core technologies of web development. You can claim that an individual site has another primary concern and so the lack of accessibility and compatibility is not an issue but for the vast majority of sites information transmission is their main focus and as such flash is to the best technology to use.
  27. mowgli

    mowgli collapsing wave functions

    "100% flash is never a suitable option"

    What a bold, absolutist and ignorant standpoint specially when you then contradict it by saying "they have been given a brief which includes heavy graphical animation and they do not have the budget"
    I'm afraid that in those cases it is a suitable (and only) option. Also timescales play a huge part in this.

    Spending six months developing a microsite with a lifespan of a couple of weeks is never going to happen.

    Also you seem to think that information means text. I'm afraid that information is a lot more than that. Images, animation etc can convey much more information in a more immediate manner in many cases.

    Also you fail to see that that people who cannot view Flash content are NOT part of the target audience of a Flash website so no problem there. You'll actually find shit loads of sites made in Flash with no Flash detection, no alternative html and no excuses or apologies regarding that matter yet they have their audiences and their place on the web.

    The web's primary use is whatever people want to do with it. Sure information plays a big part but it is by no means its sole use or purpose. What about entertainment and freedom of expression? Bear in mind that these come in uninformative flavours too yet they don't have any less value for it.

    To put your comments into a metaphor you're basically saying that pop-up books are bad practice because books are meant to be text based and printed with black ink on white paper.
  28. evomedia

    evomedia Control Freaks

    mowgli I've worked in design agencies and web development agencies for over ten years, also working with hundreds of blue chip companies, I know what your saying, your looking at stuff like audi microsites etc, but NO ONE is saying flash cannot be used, but if you think it can't be incorporated with other technology to make a site useable you are 5 years out of date.

    All websites should be built to sit flash in properly made pages, there has to be a non flash alternative, if you disagree then your working for companies that are ignoring DDA compliance and are therefore building illegal websites. I've never met a client who once informed as to whats the legal requirements still want a flash only version without providing an alternative .

    You simply can't do 100% flash sites anymore legally, that mean links to swf's especially, but also not using other technologies like html, php or aspx pages to sit flash correctly, basic navigation simply never has to be a pure flash element, you can use stuff like sifr to replace flash elements but it never works that well, nav is always best handled by css techniques, you can easily build templated pages with many flash elements that fit together to create a total flash look without breaking your legal obligations.

    Yep your right some ad agencies build flash only sites, but then they are not web agencies they are marketeers who have no real understanding of the correct way to construct sites. Image is everything and flash seems easy, but its just as easy to build a mixed technology site that looks identical. The worst offenders are always design agencies with all designers and no developers, I know I've worked in plenty of them. So the product is built only from a designers point of view, I'm a designer, but understand the developers role.

    Its not the clients job to understand the latest laws in website design, its the agency or designers role to inform them. I've worked on so mny redesigns of nice looking websites because the agency they used just ignored the current reg, ignored SEO optimisation, and have no understanding of user journies. You, just like I used to, miss the point, its now illegal to build flash only sites, as they cannot comply to DDA regardless of your opinion, you open clients up to very expensive lawsuits, I've seen 3 clients come to us after threats for failure to comply and their viewpoint soon changed. Whatever you say thats just the way it is now.

    Even most seemingly flash only sites, if built correctly have code to detect, redirect, have no javascript alternatives, just you can't see them because your browser is not a screen reader or a non java enabled version.

    I work in a web design and development agency, with equal designers to developers, producing websites that are accessed by millions, its all about user journies and accesibility these days. You just have to a provide alternative ways to view for those with disabilities. Your clients risk an unlimited fine for failure to comply, NO web design or development company should be advising solutions that are potentially risking a massive fine just to be cool.

    If you want to see what a pain the web is for some users switch off your active scripting in IE and start looking at websites, the audi r8 microsite is impossible to enter, the miller site doesn't even let you past the splash page. Its just very poor web design which can be easily rectified if the agency understands what it needs to do these days to make a website truely accessible to all. Flash is a part of a design solution not the complete offering. Google can even ban companies from their listings if they do not correctly construct their pages, you need to have head code properly constructed with robot.txt files, and to be listed correctly you have to include things like H tags which flash only pages do not handle correctly.

    You need to brush up on your skills if this isn't getting through as it shows a lack of knowledge as to correct techniques these days. If your doing flash only pages there HAS to be an alternative mate.
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2008
  29. evomedia

    evomedia Control Freaks

    Last edited: Nov 4, 2008
  30. vdmoKstaTi

    vdmoKstaTi Seems to be Right Now

    sleepytom and evomedia, i've said exactly the same things before.... ;)

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