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Future of Modul8

Discussion in 'Software' started by madsmeskalin, Feb 11, 2012.

  1. madsmeskalin

    madsmeskalin Torkonfoslak

    First of all: I know you guys dont have answers to this, but I want to hear the thoughts of somebody who has more experience than me.

    Ive been using Modul8 since 2009, being the only interface that made sense to me. I tried Resolume back then, but it didnt really give me a hard-on. But lately Resolume seems to catch up, and go beyond. When I was playing with Resolume, the quality of my compositions went up a notch. It was easier to make good transitions, and the effects seemed a little more mature than Modul8´s. The DXV codec is a selling point in itself.

    As it havent been a major update for quite some time, what do you guys think we will see from Garagecube in the future? Are Resolume a more stable company, with more resources for development, or do you think Garagecube will surprise us "apple-style" with something big in the near future?
  2. MoRpH

    MoRpH Moderator

    I agree it has been rather stagnant, hoping for new focus on it now they are done with MadMapper
  3. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    Does it matter?

    Work on better content, the "live" aspect of VJing is massively over rated.

    With good content you can do a good show with almost any VJ software.
  4. MoRpH

    MoRpH Moderator

    That is true Tom, I couldn't agree more, and thats what I've personally been doing for along time now. That said I would like to see all the VJ softwares continue to evolve, new functionality can open new creative doors :)
  5. vanakaru

    vanakaru I've given money to VJForums

    I have been even Modul8 fanboy not so long ago. I like it still and use it on every show but I am a bit disillusioned about its future. There are many things with Modul8 that have been asked to address for YEARS and have been kind of ignored or brushed aside by developers. Sometimes just a good explanation and reasoning would suffice, but it has not happened.
    For me the main issues are MIDI (and why not OSC) proper implementation. There is an improvement with abilities saving MIDI maps and choosing devices but why they did not go the whole way. It was discussed a lot.
    Then the darkness about preview and output sizes that has not been completely explained is just baffling. Why there has to be such a mess with preview window and ”normalizing” and Advanced Output when we use clips sizes anything but 640x480 is beyond me. So many years and so many questions asked!!??
    And thing that has beed requested for some time to be able to lock a layer - result is silence, not even a comment.
    Anyway I am sad that I did not choose VDMX when I started. Or jumped to Resolume when they really got going recently. Maybe?
    On the positive side M8 have given me the best performance so far. Latest test with MXO2 live capture Modul8 performed absolutely the best. 1-2 frames latency while Quicktime had 5-7, so did many other apps I tested.
    And I agree with Tom as well. I would like M8 to be good and well functioning player with the features it has. But it must work solid.
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2012
  6. thomase

    thomase VJ Wunderkind

    I totally agree with Tom. Good content and even QT is a good vj app
  7. lotech

    lotech video junkies

    The Garagecube guys often counter our requests with 'that can be done with a module' but that just makes me want to smash my head against the wall. It would be fine if they had improved the module editor and included more keywords for us to use in the modules.

    I don't even think the app needs to change much, I like the way it works but filling my screen with modules to add basic functionality is a pain.

    I have tried to add a bunch of the features I want in to a few modules but would rather have them in the main UI (as my coding skills are terrible).
    Things that should just be there now -
    Layer lock.
    Basic layer playback controls (play/pause/rewind).
    Thumbnails of layers.
    Less flakey MIDI/OSC.
    BPM module built in.
    Cross fader controls.
    Preview/output/advanced output setup.
    Media management - merging/moving/media panel size.

    Theres obviously more things but these things should be in there - and 2 years ago.
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2012
  8. deepvisual

    deepvisual visually challenged

    I dunno what the fuss is about.

    its stable - unlike all the others
    it runs very well if you dont overload it.

    thats all I need.
  9. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    I've never been able to use Modul8 because of the way it fudges output size / layer size. It's not really an issue for some people but I simply cannot use an app that won't tell me what size the output and layers really are.

    I also find the GUI is a bit of a train crash! So I'd love it if they would update the application and fix these things.
  10. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    I've never been able to use Modul8 because of the way it fudges output size / layer size. It's not really an issue for some people but I simply cannot use an app that won't tell me what size the output and layers really are.

    I also find the GUI is a bit of a train crash! So I'd love it if they would update the application and fix these things.
  11. DrEskaton

    DrEskaton Triple Hexagon, Osaka

    Thats only true if you are doing "silent vjing" with standard rectangular screens. If you want to do realtime generative content, mapping or screen clusters then the software needs to support it. Modul8's module system is pretty limited compared to the ability to create anything at all in QC and have it as part of a custom effect, generator or mix mode in VDMX.

    I've hit up the VDMX guys with a huge number of quirky and unusual requests over the last five years and they have always responded and have implemented a lot of the features I wanted and that others asked for. They now support multi-GPU output with the b8 rewrite, which was one thing modul8 had for a while.

    And they latest version includes a bunch of starter templates to get people up and running, lots of people were put off by a steep learning curve of VDMX before, its a lot more accessible now.
  12. vanakaru

    vanakaru I've given money to VJForums

    Maybe now it is the right time for me then.
  13. rolin

    rolin Everything Visual!

    As a Mac OS X exclusive program (like VDMX and unlike Resolume) true Quartz Composer integration would be great.

    True meaning native performance and full parameter control through the Modul8 UI (like in Resolume or VDMX).

    Syphon ist great, but it is a workaround.

    Also layer assignable masks (like in Resolume) and a dedicated hue slider in the default UI (not the FF one) would be nice as well.

    Apart from that I agree with @sleepytom, that the base for a great show is and always was high quality content. But a solid live performance setup that allows maximum flexibility and optimal usage of available tools also makes a difference, especially when the content is split into layers or you want to add generative stuff.
  14. deepvisual

    deepvisual visually challenged

    well, its easy to knock garagecube.
    You guys wanna try making shows using 35mm pin registered slides and a cassette track sync.
    I mean, mad mapper is fantastic and its taken mapping out of the hands of a select few and made it available to absolutely everyone. And what do people do? complain because it doesn't do something you can easily do in photoshop...

    The simple fact is VJs wont pay decent money for VJ apps so the programmers dont have the resources to please everybody
  15. DrEskaton

    DrEskaton Triple Hexagon, Osaka

    sorry deepvisual, modul8 has stagnated over the last 2-3 years while Resolume Avenue and VDMX and even Arkaos Grand VJ has maintained a very fast development pace and responded to users requests.

    Clearly some users are paying and allowing developers to continue, but looks like they're not paying for Modul8, so its just not being developed. There is no money in "silent VJ'ing", but there is money in apps that allow you to do AV shows, DMX integration / lightshow design or custom multiscreen installations.
  16. deepvisual

    deepvisual visually challenged

    I dont see it that way.
    they had a choice to develop madmapper or reinvent M8 just to carry on competing directly with VDMX, Resolume, Qlab and catalyst.
    I think Garagecube made the right choice for now. especially given the consequences of syphon.
    M8 does what it does well. Do we really need 4 VJ apps that all do exactly the same thing?
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2012
  17. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    I'm not sure anyone is making serious money out of visuals software until you get up to "media server" level products which cost thousands to buy.

    VDMX + Resolume dev teams are certainly not getting rich from their software, regardless of how useful they are for people who can't find a proper video screen to project onto!

    Even the most expensive software solutions are pretty buggy by professional / broadcast standards, we can't really expect this to change whilst they are still developed by small teams who barely scrape a living.
  18. stickygreen

    stickygreen this is my custom title

    You're right about the money in the media server's part, just look at Arkaos, they've abandoned all there products except the media servers..

    But i think the Resolume guys are doing OK, they just posted a help wanted add today... : http://www.resolume.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=9255

    when i chose what VJ software to go with, Resolume was the winner due to one thing - cross platform compatibility. I don't need a certain kind of computer.. i can operate the same app on different machine (mac, or PC), this is a huge factor in deciding your investment of VJ future.
  19. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    Doing OK is a long way from getting rich.

    If you want to earn dollar programming openGL then go and work on big games like Halo or whatever. Vj software companies cannot afford to pay anything like what games companies pay, which is why VJ software updates are slow to appear and why many of the available VJ apps are buggy and slow.
  20. DrEskaton

    DrEskaton Triple Hexagon, Osaka

    Compared to what? Go read the list of bugs on FCP X, or even on super high end broadcast software like Autodesk flame. They crash, and sometimes they even corrupt data, losing your project or clip library.

    Vidvox has managed updates almost weekly for the last two years and its now very stable and fast.
  21. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    FCPX has been a clusterfuck for years (ie 2 years before release insiders seemed to be predicting it would be a nightmare!) its not broadcast software and never will be.

    Weekly updates isn't really ideal - as a classic readme once said "some bugs fixed, some bugs added"!! - I know people who edit TV shows on AVID suites which haven't been updated in 5 years. They work, and carry on working. Adding new stuff might be great if you want new stuff, personally all i really want is reliability and decent consistent 25FPS playback of my content. This should not be too much to ask for but it seems that *most* VJ software developers are more interested in adding new stuff than making their existing functionality function properly.

    The trouble with VJ software developers is they don't make much money from their software, so they can't be bothered with the boring dev like making a decent media playback engine which can play video files at consistent frame rates. Everyone is keen to add wacky functions for projection mapping or realtime effects which use the kinect (or whatever toy is popular this week) but the basics are so often missing. This is why it took 10 years of commercially developed VJ apps before anyone bothered to make a MIDI output system which works - 10 years ago I had motor faders, was it really that hard for the concept of MIDI output to get taken up?

    Projection mapping is all good and well, but the stuttering playback which seems to go hand in hand with all the major VJ apps makes for a scene which is technology driven rather than content based. I've been physically sick with worry on big mapping jobs as I simply do not know if the playback is going to be smooth when we push go in front of 40,000 people. Maybe I've made my life hard by caring aboyut this stuff? Many people seem to be happy with the crappy motion graphics "mapping" where you keystone abstract layers onto the building and then make it look like it falls down. I'm not interested in this though, and need at least semi-smooth playback to prevent the narrative from being lost to glaring technical errors.
  22. DrEskaton

    DrEskaton Triple Hexagon, Osaka

    surely if you're doing a mapping projection in front of 40,000 people you ARE using a media server solution with frame accurate playback instead of a $300 VJ app?

    I know of several using raided SSD's that will playback smoothly, Hippotizer / Catalyst, Touch Derivative, Addict Media Server.

    None of your points seem to have anything to do with the OP, which is that Modul8 has lagged compared to the other $300-$500 VJ apps in recent years and users are rightly concerned about it's future.
  23. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    The addict playback isn't very good really, Hippo is maybe the best of them, but even it is quite poor when compared with something that is actually smooth (Digibeta for example) Catalyst is not good unless you have a super computer to run it on (and the mac pro is too long in the tooth really) Touch i've not really seen anyone use other than on the Amon Tobin thing - tbh it was impossible to tell if the playback was smooth as the content was intentionally glitchy.

    Its a poor excuse to say spend more money on something better. This excuse is used by the mediaserver vendors too.

    My point is on topic (as much as any of yours are) Updates are not always a good thing, and stability and reliability are more important for a professional tool than continual updates.

    GOOD shows revolve around good content - thinking that you need a constantly changing tool to keep things moving forward is a delusion. Too many updates break things and make it impossible to actually build on what you have done before.

    In summary "do i need a new VJ software to improve my show?" NO you need better content.
  24. dontregister

    dontregister New Member

    M8 is OK for me

    I don't have to complain about modul8.
    It could be better but it's rock solid for me, i do shows, conventions and stage design with modul8, i also use it as a media player for live shows. It never failed me. Period.

    I've updated my hardware (macpro quad 2,66 ghz - 8Gb RAM) with an internal SSD (Crucial M3) to store my clips. I trigger prores clips with no latency.

    I create modules to organize my shows : one button = multiple actions.
    I sometimes use an iPad with touchOSC as a remote.
    No fancy effects, no extreme mix.

    The future of modul8 ?
    For me what's still lacking :
    . a timeline based event triggering would be cool ;
    . a playlist ;
    . unlimited clips number ;
    . use directly Blackmagic cards as output (sdi, hdmi) ;
    . better integrated midi output ;
    . multiple live inputs of the same kind ;
    . play keynote and powerpoint presentations (no kidding).

    Last edited: Feb 14, 2012
  25. DrEskaton

    DrEskaton Triple Hexagon, Osaka

    most of my content is interactive QC patches (eg it's software).... and there is plenty of other VDMX's vj's using the vast amount of freely shared patches as part or all of their shows.

    your playback comment is also nonsense tom, 25 frames per second is 25 frames per second, and any modern computer with two striped SSD's can play back 1920x1080 DXV or prores clips without dropping frames.
  26. leolodreamland

    leolodreamland chromatouch visuals

    off topic? all you've done is wanked on about vdmx... the thread is about the future of modul8.
    my tuppence: i like syphoning modul8 into resolume 4 or vdmx, depending if i want video or generative stuff. best of all possible worlds. modul8 is very solid as resolume avenue seems to be now. i do crash vdmx more often tho, (prolly because of vades glitch plugin :p). i have developed my style with the use of vj software rather than my content. but that's just me, i use simple elements and build with the software...
    there are a few niggles with modul8 like any software. i think the guys are more artsy in their approach to programming than logical, but that's it's beauty i think. it's quirky... i think it should develop that quirk rather than loads of osc and midi and syphon features (although they'd be nice). like rotational symmetry in the matrix, advanced particles, more grouping options...
    as for the speed of development, i've seen hardly any development since i first bought a mac in 2009. it would be nice to see a version 3 on the horizon, but they were pretty quick to implement syphon output on the main out. it works, i'm still learning to use it in new ways, it's got a modular system which is great and adds loads of funky shit. i'm happy.
  27. alfaleader

    alfaleader Member

    I'm just new to the whole osx VJ thing (just bought my macbook pro two days ago) and from first glance I notice this:
    -Modul8 is a bit like Resolume 2.4. It's rock solid, but is also quite old so no new fancy features like other programs.
    -VDMX shows a lot more possibilities, it's more modular and more things to do. But not as stable as modul8. It's something like the difference between resolute 2.4 and 3: res3 had more possibilities and some really nice features, but some people are staying with 2.4

    There's a need for innovation, but it can't be at the cost of stability. Programmers should first make things stable before adding new functions

    That's not true, there are some things like micro stuttering (mostly with multiple GPUs). The FPS can be over 60, but there are is a very small stutter that makes it very annoying. ;)
  28. DrEskaton

    DrEskaton Triple Hexagon, Osaka

    I brought up VDMX in response to sleepytoms claim that no-one should worry about modul8 being updated because the software doesn't matter !!!!
    And then as an example that some VJ apps are being regularly updated.

    If everyone was happy with the state of modul8 this thread wouldn't have been posted.

    Alfa leader, which version of VDMX are you basing that on? I run the latest b8 version on snow leopard and it's rock solid, never crashes, but all my content is batch converted to PJpeg or is QC patches, I don't use any dodgy AVI's or h264's, IMO having 100s of clips of different codecs is the biggest issue that can crash any VJ app. Stick to one codec and you're solid.
  29. alfaleader

    alfaleader Member

    Latest version VDMX. It seemed I loaded a corrupt quartz composer patch, so it crashed.

    Another problem with VDMX is that I can't playback swf files. It should work, but it just doesn't load. (latest version of flash player installed).
    Modul8 can do swf without a problem.

    It also seems that VDMX has a small delay when I trigger clips. I use DVX 720 clips, and they play without problems in modul8, but when I trigger them with VDMX there is a small but noticeable delay. When using 640x480 PhotoJPEG I don't see problems. Tried some different rendering options.
    Using latest 15 inch macbook pro.
  30. deanbob

    deanbob ::CHECKTHISPECKER::

    Sorry to disagree but I think Modul8 is a great app. Does exactly what it's intended to do and amongst other things it is stable.

    M8 and MM just ran the main installations at our exhibition without any trouble what so ever. Hundreds of people mashing buttons all day without a hitch.

    The GUI is easily accessible and makes perfect sense and anything lacking in the main interface can usually be addressed by a module anyway.

    Garagecube made the right call with MadMapper and I think when M8 v3 hits many peoples requests/ gripes will be addressed.

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