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got tiger? please test this qc movie in vj apps.

Discussion in 'Software' started by DrEskaton, May 1, 2005.

  1. DrEskaton

    DrEskaton Triple Hexagon, Osaka

    some of you might not realise exactly how cool what Apple has done with QC / core image is.

    Attached is a quartz composer patch that renders a simple 3d scene with some audio interaction and midi control.

    This will play back rendering on the fly in Quicktime player or "in theory" in any vj app that plays quicktime and even recieve the audio and midi information without the VJ app having to know anything about it.

    The teapot bounces to the music and you can control the size of the sphere with midi controller 1. yea it's ugly but I wanted something quick to test this.

    I have tested this in Modul8 (works fine) and Grid (doesn't work).

    Please test this with other VJ programs and report if you have success or not.

    This will only work on 10.4 and some VJ apps may have to update for it to be compatible.

    Once this is working it opens up a whole new field, it's like having 3d accelerated flash compositions that can read midi and audio input.....
  2. murk

    murk Bringer of Blight

    That has got to be the most badass feature of 10.4 (IMHO). The ability to repurpose complex patches into any application opens a whole new realm of power. It's unfortunate that this technology probably won't make it over to QT for Windows due to the OS level dependencies.
  3. In case you missed it in the Mac Audio Spectrum thread...

    Here's another Quartz Composer patch that visualizes incoming audio as a 3D graph.

  4. t2k

    t2k New Member

    i think its especially cool that they can be embedded in web pages too, just like any other quicktime file

    Is there any technology even vaguely heading in this direction on Windows? oh yeah wait a minute I've been working on it for 5 years - http://www.slvtn.com


  5. thomase

    thomase VJ Wunderkind

    just to let you guys know:

    something similar has been possible for quite some time:

    e.g. you can rename your motion compositions (replace *.mtn with .mov) and open them in quicktime...

    very useful as well...
  6. DrEskaton

    DrEskaton Triple Hexagon, Osaka

    it's not quite that simple Tomase, motion comps will only playback on machine with motion installed. There is an additional framework needed that is installed with Motion.

    While the framework for playing QC compositions is available on ALL macs with 10.4
  7. thomase

    thomase VJ Wunderkind

    oh, didn't know that... but the file plays even when motion is not running, so I thought it would just function the same way. BTW: apple recomends doing just that to load mtn files into shake or other apps...
  8. LighthouseProd

    LighthouseProd New Member

    Yeah, core image will change the way these apps are built. Does anyone know of any projects in the works?
    Seems like with quicktime 7 and core image a resolume/arkaos type app would be easy to build and work so smooth. I am not a developer, but may look into it just to build a killer vis app.
  9. akira_k

    akira_k 8GB EUTour 2010 - book us

    This kicks some SEVERE ass man....

    Can't wait to buy my next computer with Tiger now!!
  10. DrEskaton

    DrEskaton Triple Hexagon, Osaka

    the teapot is a bit naff.

    please download this to test instead.

    it's based on light and shadows audio reactive spectrum with a few tweaks to make it pretty :). see the other thread for details. It's also pretty light, it should run fast even on an older mac.

    I have tested a few more programs with this qc patch, this is the running total:

    flowmotion (works)
    neuromixer (works)
    modul8 (works)
    grid / grid pro / vdxmx (doesn't work)

    so it's not max/msp, cause neuromixer is programmed in max/msp and it can play this fine.

    there is a performance hit in running qc compositions as quicktimes instead of natively "qc comps" but this example should show you can still make a good looking comp that runs fast enough to be usable.

    to take full advantage of QC / core image and get the best possible performance, a VJ app has to be written in Cocoa, no way around it.
  11. KillingFrenzy

    KillingFrenzy KillingFrenzy Visuals

    Just a warning

    If you're running a Max/MSP based app, there are some problems with QT 7.0 and the way Max/Jitter translates audio from a quicktime to MSP. If you aren't useing audio output of your files at all, then don't worry, but if you're using something like Neuromixer with audio output from your quicktime, then Quicktime 7.0 will NOT work. Grab a copy of the older Quicktime installer, just in case, before experimenting with the new one.
  12. pol

    pol Quartz Composer Architect

    Just so you guys know regarding performances (I have a upcoming tech note on that): Quartz Composer can run optimimally through QuickTime in applications that take advantage of a key new feature of QuickTime 7: visual contexts. They provide support for accelerated OpenGL rendering among other things. For applications that run the older QuickTime rendering path (i.e. use GWorlds), Quartz Composer runs in compatibility mode which put a severe burden on performances.

    So it comes down to three levels of integration in VJ apps on Tiger:
    - through QuickTime older APIs: works but bad performances
    - through QuickTime 7 visual context APIs: optimal performances but no fine control on compositions (like setting / retrieving parameters)
    - through native support using Quartz Composer APIs
  13. DrEskaton

    DrEskaton Triple Hexagon, Osaka

    thanks for clarifying.

    The fact that when played as a qucktime, the qc patch will still recieve midi signals bound to composition parameters and audio input is enough to open up many possibilities even without full "native" qc support.
  14. francisj

    francisj New Member

    w00T!!!!! :#

    i've seen this running on a g4 (not hw qualified for coreimage, ie running the effects of CPU not GPU) in Arkaos 3.0.3 - the movie drops in exactly like a QT file, plays back smoothly (if unscaled, and speed 100%!), works with alpha compositing (ie 'background copy' mode composites the effects on top of other layers). This is just way, way too cool. FYI I was messing with the RSS screensaver's .qtz file (yes, the system screensaver can playback these files!) - trying to get it to visualise more than the ten items it does now - this really is like Apple supplying the hardcore development environment Arkaos direly needed. Anyway, got the (unhacked) thing to work in Arkaos, after opening the file from the system library in the app included in the Developer Tools package, export as .mov - and got Arkaos displaying RSS feeds :p See attached screenshot...

    IMO this is much, much more significant than FreeFrame - I assume/hope this will also work with the Motion hack.
    Now, imagine the above pipelined with interactive IP based stuff (like SMS/RSS feeds)...generating realtime Motion compositions and layering them into Arkaos...that's starting to make Avid newsroom systems look very damn expensive...
  15. simot

    simot New Member

    this is all too exciting, can't wait for my mac....
  16. DrEskaton

    DrEskaton Triple Hexagon, Osaka

    Re: w00T!!!!! :#

    can you test my "cities of gold" audio reactive comp in Arkaos and let me know if the audio reactivity works and what sort of frame rate you are getting?
  17. francisj

    francisj New Member

    teapot works...spectrum displays, tho i dont have an audio source hooked up to my soundcard atm. if it's supposed to take a feed when itunes is playing, there's a problem (it didnt) - i wasnt clear on whether it was supposed to do this or not.
    are there any good development environments for this medium - eg can Maya export a polygon mesh to a composition (OMG that would rock...go on, write the plugin lol), or can a shockwave 3D file be imported?
  18. DrEskaton

    DrEskaton Triple Hexagon, Osaka

    do you have a microphone? it can be set to listen to either mic in or line in in the system preferences.

    unfortunately don't think itunes -> qc is possible directly but it works fine looping from your speakers in to a microphone.

    pixelshox used to have an obj object file importer and I've filed a bug report / feature request for it to come back in Quartz Composer. Then you should be able to import any 3d mesh from Maya / CInema 4D etc. Should be easy for POL to add, since he still has the code from Pixelshox.
  19. francisj

    francisj New Member

    yup - it works :)
    pretty cool...what environment was it built in?
    This whole thing is rather typical of arkaos - check their forum...it says no support for image units/coreimage! I wonder if they're even developing on 10.4?? I have a suspicion that's what's set back release of 3.5 BTW. Although, looking at this, 3.0.3 under Tiger is ALREADY a huge leap forward.
  20. francisj

    francisj New Member

    framerate - running on its own - sys 20, arkaos 80-100 (see their site for an account of these two statistics, i can't recall the difference offhand, tho i think it implies that a faster GPU would up the framerate a lot).
  21. elbows

    elbows PixelRomper

    Oh wow, this stuff is special. I just bought my first Mac on saturday so that I could see what all this corevideo and quartz composer are about. I only got a mac mini to get started with the basics, and Im impressed.

    Cheers for the samples, my mac has no mic or line in (as far as I know) so I'll have to get some USB audio device working with it?
  22. francisj

    francisj New Member

    The Motion thing doesn't work, as far as I can see, with anything other than Shake. Anyone else tried this & got it to work (trial was on Motion 1.01)?
  23. XPz

    XPz New Member

    really interresting... would like to see it running.
  24. bassballs

    bassballs Punk/Jazz and Visualz


    I tested in MotionDive Tokyo tonight and it works perfectly there to :p

  25. DrEskaton

    DrEskaton Triple Hexagon, Osaka


    I have worked after talking to Vidvox, you can make Grid (and Grid Pro) work with QC Compositions.

    Turn on "flash loading enabled" and disable "fast load" and it then works.

    Ok, but this is all slow, as Pol says, VJ developers need to change their app to use Quicktime 7 Visual contexts for this to work best.

    The performance hit is SEVERE, half to a third of the possible frame rate when playing back using the old compability mode for playing Quicktimes.

    I just had a beer with the Vidvox guys here in London and they have promised to update Grid and Grid Pro for faster performance when triggering QC comps as soon as possible (right guys?)

    I have uploaded a couple of new versions of my spectrum patch that are better for testing:


  26. spark

    spark cut-up, composit, create


    i'm sitting here with a vidvox guy after avituk05 and they have an idea why the thumbnail works but the comp doesn't, just need to get back to a tiger mac to test it out...

  27. thomase

    thomase VJ Wunderkind

    try just opening your files in quicktime - that works, framerates are far from ideal...
    should also work in FCP/FCE, but there is really no need for it cause they support .mtn support anyways...
  28. francisj

    francisj New Member

    Won't work here :(
    To confirm - composition created in Motion 1.0.1 saved as .motn (not .mtn - was that a typo or is it another format?) and changed extension to .mov, the resulting file will import into a Shake fileIn node, but nothing else.
    QT7 Player refuses the file with a -2048 'cannot understand' error. This happens whether Motion/Shake are running or not.
    Motion.framework is present in /Library/Frameworks/
    Motion.component is present in /Library/QuickTime/

    Thomase, could you please confirm you can work this hack in QT7/10.4? It seems to be an undocumented feature, the only document containing 'extension' in the Motion support documents is the one describing this hack (but it only mentions shake), I would really like to see this working tho!
  29. DrEskaton

    DrEskaton Triple Hexagon, Osaka

    um, Photoshop? there's no actual 3d in it, it's just texture maps on some cubes replicated in space with offsets.

    You have to be able to think a bit like a progammer. I build one spectrum then use "replicate in space" with a an offset in scaling and position to get the spiral effect. same with the circles and grids, just one texture replicated in 3d space.

    once pol adds the ability to use "obj fles" imported from 3d programs there should be much more possibilities.

    and about the "motion" compabilitiy, I'm 99 percent certain that Apple put specific hooks into FCP and Shake to allow them to render motion comps on the fly, no other programs can do this and they are not "proper" qucktime files.

    Use Quartz Composer for this kind of stuff. Motion really wasn't designed to be used that way. (unless they have majorly changed it in 2.0).
  30. thomase

    thomase VJ Wunderkind

    just to clear things up: I am talking about qt 6 and motion 1, btw: yes it was a type, it should read .motn
    If I change that to .ov and drag it on qt, it will play. I'm not really sure whether this does any good, but it does work on my machine...

    one thing though: qt AND fce keep asking me for a clip that was in the same project as the clip I just tested, but as far as I remember, I never really used it, still there's an error message saying it won't play properly w/o it, but does so neway... :confused:

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