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HD editing

Discussion in 'Software' started by levon, Feb 3, 2005.

  1. levon

    levon Headless Chicken

    i went to the sony product demo of the new HVR-Z1P (progresive scan model) and the guy was saying that there is not currently a way of using the HD footage in final cut pro or avid, and the only software he knew of was sony's vegas and pinicle(spelling??). this camera wont be out in australia for a few days, so i was just wondering if anyone else had use one of these cameras with final cut pro, and if it is possible to get the footage into FCP.

    you would think that the free upgrade of final cut pro HD would be able to do it, but the sony guy said you couldnt.
     
  2. djjef

    djjef New Member

    Yes the HDV format is editable with Final Cut per our local Sony Rep. Actually there are quite a few products that are supporting or soon to support the HDV format for editing.
     
  3. krezrock

    krezrock New Member

    I think there's a problem with FCP rendering 10-16 bit colorspace. Stuck at 8-bit. There are cards that boast a true 4:4:4 10-bit colorspace that are compatible with the new PCI-X slots. Not sure who to believe.

    :sad:
     
  4. visualove

    visualove New Member

    HDV is 8 bit - JVC, Sony and Panasonic. Avid ExpressPro HD will have HDV (25Mb/s) input and output over firewire the first half of this year. Also in and out of Pana DVCProHD (100Mb/s) and internal 10 bit processing, high end codec for graphics and titles, MPEG and Windows Media HD out too, all now. You might want to see demonstrated to your satisfaction your workflow from camera -edit -color correction -sound -effects/compositing -titles -output end to end before laying down the cash. Sure Apple has something similar. The devil is in the details for now.
     
  5. mikeyfreedom

    mikeyfreedom New Member

    hd problem

    I think that this camera uses MPEG2 compression to enable hd video to be recorded onto mindDV or DVcam tape (beware of compression artefacts from this which may effect quality). If this is the case then how do you then edit the footage? If you bring it into a mac or pc via firewire then is it a dv stream using the DV25 (standard dv) codec? I dont think this is possible as you have far too much picture information at 1920x1076 or whatever it is. Another problem is hard drive speed as even a serial ATA drive cant eat that data rate so you may need a fast disk array etc (this is the only way I have seen HD being edited on line)

    Based on this I guess that it comes into your computer as some form of MPEG2 and this may be the problem as FCP cant handle MPEG2 and in some forms MPEG2 as a Codec is problematic for editing (presumably Sony have gotten over this by ensuring that all the frames are key frames in the MPEG2 stream). I seem to remember that Sony were advertising some software with one of their HD cameras which handled the camera data - presumably for this reason. I dont think it was mac compatible though!

    If you are editing on FCP and mac (in my opinion the best choice) then maybe a good idea to go to a reputable Sony outlet and check the whole process thoroughly before buying the camera.

    Sorry if this is a bit lengthy but there is a good reason why HD editing is an expensive pro-only set up so I am always suspicious of these solutions.
     
  6. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    the best option for HDV editing is sony vegas

    btw the hrv z1 is not progressive scan - it offers no true progressive options (bizzaraly they do say it will do 720p playback but not recording)
     
  7. videoteque

    videoteque New Member

    Apple has sorted out the basic and the medium sectors. Let's see when Final Cut Pro will accept HDV directly, by now you need a plug-in as specified here.
     
  8. videoteque

    videoteque New Member

    Reading my post it could seem I am a Steve Jobs relative or have Apple stocks, is not the case!!!

    But if they send me a couple of G5s I can always work for them!!!;) ;) ;)
     
  9. famouswhendead

    famouswhendead VFX Generalist

    I posted the Apple work around

    imovie HD to FCP

    or use lumiereHD for fcp transfers with DVHS app at apple developer.
    Avid and apple companies will probably unveil solutions at NAB in april for HDV editing.

    The HDV-1P does a fake progressive scan (patches fields to make a frame) and is not like a true progressive camera like the panasonic DVX100.
     
  10. visualove

    visualove New Member

    HDV uses MPEG compression with about a 6-15 frame GOP - which can be thought of the number of frames between I frames. The editing system has to unwind the interframe compression to make the cut on a B or P intermediate frame. The color is also highly compressed 4:2:0 and the audio is compressed to 384kbs by the predecessor of MP3. The video and audio are combined with timecode into an MPEG transport stream. There are pro editing systems in the field that do this, so it is well within the reach of Vegas, Avid Express, FCP, Premiere and others. There might be a lag for different cameras (JVC, Panasonic, Sony) to be supported by each edit package. Magic, maybe with a few warts to start though...

    The beauty of HDV is that you don't need an expensive SDI board to take in or out this highly compressed HD video and that the CPU and disks in a typical PC can do the work. We need one more technology generation (6 months?) to get good real time HD monitoring on an editing PC/Mac. It will be interesting to see if the flat screen TV makers put HDV jacks on their monitors. God knows there is nothing on network TV (Lost Survivor Extreme Makeover Bride?) worth watching! So everybody, get to work making good content...

    Typically a lot of new stuff is announced at NAB in April
     
  11. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    well realtime performance is there allready in Vegas (err its a sony product init)

     
  12. DrEskaton

    DrEskaton Triple Hexagon, Osaka

    just to clarify, the new version of iMovie HD and Final Cut Pro HD already does HDV. It's widely suspected that a new version of Final Cut Pro will be out at NAB (April) with full HDV support plus support for more DVCPRO HD codecs and other goodies.

    I don't know if you'll see monitors witha HDV jack cause they would need MPEG2 decoding in the monitor.
     
  13. visualove

    visualove New Member

    Hey welcome to the UK!
    Exactly - the market is so flooded with panel TV's that the makers will have to differentiate themselves. Now some have flash slots and jpeg decoding - predict MPEG 2/4 decoders so consumers can plug in their cameras direct. Maybe also a front panel jack on the DVD recorder/PVR!
     
  14. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    err what?
    flat panels genrally have component hdtv inputs
    the fx1 /z1 have got component hdtv outputs
    why would you want / need an mpeg2 decoder built into the screen?
     
  15. visualove

    visualove New Member

    In my opinion -
    The licensing costs of HDV/MPEG/DV decoding are a fraction of the manufacturing cost of an 800-4000$ retail flat screen. So every consumer with a DV/HDV/MPEG4 flash camera can just plug it in to watch their video (and stills) on a big screen.

    The interesting question is how VJ's will make use of HDMI and how content protection will play out. The content owners have failed to create value for relatively uncompressed original content over compressed. Had they done so, they could give away the highly compressed content to sell the pristine less compressed version of same. (When will they ever learn?)

    As an example, by the way, Sony Pro has announced some monitors with DV Firewire input:

    "Sony also announced upgraded Luma Series LCD Monitors for high definition video. These monitors can take FireWire output directly from a camcorder, and are the newly revamped versions of the existing Luma line. Sony will have three monitors available: a 17-inch for $3,400, a 23-inch for $4,000, and a 32-inch for $7,200. Each monitor has a remote control unit that can be rack mounted and can control up to nine Luma monitors at once. Sony emphasized that the monitors are not computer monitors; they are made for video work, with full color control and the ability to drop [color] channels."
     

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