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London under attack, and what we can do to end terrorism

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by vjpixylight, Jul 7, 2005.

  1. vjpixylight

    vjpixylight AKA Will O' The Wisp

    Re: Hope....

    james,

    as long as innocent's are being killed everyday in Iraq, why can't we expect retaliation from these new wanna-be terrorists!

    This will not only be an extended campaign, but I fear will be popping up more and more, and in a city near you!

    seems that now is the time to re-evaluate the situation, get out of the middleeast, and let them fight amongst themselves for the oil..

    ...and make no mistake about it, this is about oil. As long as the west props up the dictator's of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Omar, and others controling their countries vast oil reserves, expect the worst!

    So, next time any of us are filling up the tank, maybe we should realize that we are as much a part of the problem as the few(and I do mean few) militate Islamic ass-haid's..
  2. InsideUsAll

    InsideUsAll immersive

    yup we're all part of the machine, and it needs food.

    its amazing the panic that breaks out when the casualties are on home turf when elsewhere around the world this is going on every day.
  3. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    firstly i should say that my heart goes out to all injured in todays attacks, and to all victims of violence the world over.

    However whist the majority of those inderviduals killed were probably "innocent civilians" i feel that when viewed on a larger scale the UK is not innocent and somewhat has to expect such attacks.

    for hundreds of years the british population has oppressed and exploited almost every area of the globe. whilst the empire is now pretty much gone its legacy remains - we enjoy a very high standard of living not because we are in someway better at life than africans but because we have stolen anything of value from any part of the world we could get our grubby little hands on.

    i feel that the majority in the UK have at least a partial understanding of this situation and unlike people in the USA who felt shocked and supprised that anyone would want to attack a "good" country like the US people in the UK understand that their welth comes at a price to others and perhapse that it is not really deserved.

    partly this understanding comes from a recent history of attacks by irish terrorists - everyone in the UK understands that the IRA have a specific aim and that the english are not guilt free inocents when viewed on a macro scale.

    we can only move forward when people in the west accept 2 things - that we are not totaly innocent and that to lessern the gap between the us and the 3rd world means a reduction in standard of living / over consupmtion for the rich in the west.
  4. Anyone

    Anyone New Member

    I don't hink we can do much to stop terrorism, as VJs.

    All we can do, is I suppose,
    is to encourage people to party on,
    to help them say:

    "We are still able to have a good time"
    "We will not stay home or in bunkers"

    "We are still able to experience love and happiness and trust"

    Ne1
  5. .. although our projections would come out nicely:)
  6. DrEskaton

    DrEskaton Triple Hexagon, Osaka

    i personally wish people would wait at least a day after an event like this before they start to preach.

    of course we are not entirely innocent, but when you are personally affected and there is still people you care about that you haven't heard from yet a political lecture is not what you want to hear.

    especially since almost everyone on here already opposes the war and occupation of iraq and the policies of our government.
  7. Rovastar

    Rovastar /..\

    That didn't take long for the lefties to enter the 'It is all your fault" tip.

    Rants about oil and it being the cause, capitalism being evil, etc don't wash with me.

    Deliberate killing of people different to all the above obviously some have there head in their fluffy (or are you spikey) clouds too much.
  8. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    thats kind of my point though - the deliberate systematic killing that has got us to the position we are in today will be met by deliberate killings such as these attacks.

    we need to learn from this and attempt to redress the ballence - perhapse if we do this the chance of future attacks will be reduced?
  9. Rovastar

    Rovastar /..\

    Maybe we should shopuld learn from this and stop being soft and attack harder.
  10. elbows

    elbows PixelRomper

    Where are we being soft, how could we possibly attack harder? Who are you going to attack? If you favour that strategy then fair enough that is your right, but please describe how that could actually be done? I mean just how do you discourage people from blowing themselves up? Surely there are no deterrants against individuals who are prepared to kill themselves as death should be the ultimate deterrant.

    Show me a 'hard' logical solution against the suicide bomber phenomenon. I can see why you might not like 'soft' options, but can you see that there is a certain logic to preventing suicide bombers by removing the desperation that makes people prepared to kill themselves and others in the name of something?
  11. direktor

    direktor New Member

    Who will atack, you Rova? I doubt it. You will do what you do the best - visuals, and it would be right thing.

    You sad "Atack harder" it's not just words they mean to kill, to do what this crazy bastarz do, to resolve problem as beasts, by killing you clean the space around you, simple rule - no enemy=no problem . It's wrong, we are human, you know


    Do you really think like this Rova?
    Man...
    Let's promote peace :love2:
  12. WordVirus23

    WordVirus23 NoInput is Detected

    <dons Tinfoil Hat>

    why does an American run your (the UK) subway system?
  13. robotfunk

    robotfunk Feed your Machine

    Probably for the same reason as why Mossad landed the gig of monitoring Holland's telephone and internet traffic. they just offered the lowest bid on the job, at least for the period politicians involved in the decision would imagine to hold a seat.
  14. vjpixylight

    vjpixylight AKA Will O' The Wisp

    it's the next day now...

    Sorry that I hit a nerve DrEsk. It was never ment to be preaching...
    What frustrates me when things like this happen, its so true that, (like Tom has rightly pointed out) that the inocence of the west, is really innocence lost, and now the chickens are coming home to roost.
    It will happen elsewhere too..
    Paris. Berlin, Tokyo...
    ...and it is about oil and the strangle hold that OPEC has on the industrialized counties...
    Without the oil, the mid east would be like Africa, of which noone seems to care about, until a million ppl are mutalated or starving to death..




    Rova, are you related in some way to Stalin?
    The point of view you hold, doesn't wash with the free peace loving poeples of the world, and so unless your willing to actually go out there on the front lines, and fight back harder, you are just another blager talkin shite I'm afraid..:sad:
  15. elbows

    elbows PixelRomper

    I dont see why you think its fine to insult Rovastar just because he has a different opinion on these things.

    If its ok for me to want peace but not to be on the frontlines of it, why isnt it ok for rova to want a certain kind of action without necessarily personally participating in it?

    Peace stands no chance without greater understandings of the wide variety of opinions that exist in the world, a verbal attack isnt as harmful as a physical attack but its still an attack, so I dont see you promoting peace any more than rova is!
  16. vjpixylight

    vjpixylight AKA Will O' The Wisp

    just trading insults mate..and I believe I was fired on first..
    Rova can have his views, as can you, me and twiddledee, but that doesn't change the fact that the types like rova are proopelling this madeness, with statements like these..

  17. Kyle

    Kyle "Hello my VJ friend"

  18. solly

    solly New Member

    http://www.worldmagblog.com/blog/archives/000988.html
  19. many2

    many2 Active Member

    The thing I hate the most about these attacks is the fact that they are going to be used to justify even more violence and commercial exploitation by the US and the UK in the middle-east and elsewhere. If someone is happy today, it must be George Bush. They are also going to be used to further reduce the apparent freedom citizens of western countries are still enjoying. I suppose next time I'll go to the UK I'll probably have to give my fingerprints :(

    As long as the governments are able to convince us that "these people are evil" they are going to have the support they need for the war. Remember the last US election ? People were so convinced Saddam was evil and most Iraqis were terrorists that even the opposition wasn't able to propose peace to the electors, all he could propose was a "different war".

    My biggest wish is that Iraqis will one day take the opportunity they now have to elect someone who will kick the invaders out once and for all and nationalize petrol ressources.
  20. dansmachine

    dansmachine Video. Performance. Art.

    You read my thoughts Many2.
  21. 3YE

    3YE UndergrounD

    oi, rova, stop playing with the hippies, you know how easy it is to wind them up...

    re the world mag blog link from Solly: hilarious, the funniest thing being the way the spambots effectively broke up the fighting at the end of the comments section. go spambots...

    THE WAR is about the same thing it has always been about, war is always always always the result of...

    a breakdown in communication between the neo-cortex and the limbic system in individuals who lack self-awaraness

    or to put it another way:

    the word belief contains the word 'lie'. go with me on this for a moment, and lets experiment with the idea that all beliefs are just lies, that they are ideas held in defiance of reality, systems that people follow because they lack the ability to 'see' reality, or at least tolerate gaps in reality (i'll come back to these gaps in a minute), or to be conciously aware of thier actions. from here it's not hard to classify anybody who picks up a gun, a bomb or any killing implement as 'dysfunctional', detached from reality or in a very real clinical sense 'psychotic'

    so if you believe in something, despite evidence to the contrary, you may be volontarilty entering into a psychotic delusion. let's list some common beliefs and see if this holds:

    america is evil
    america is good
    touching pork means you go to hell
    touching yourself means you go to hell
    touching people the same sex as yourself means you go to hell
    killing infidels means you go to heaven
    killing towelheads and cameljockeys will sort this thing out
    only a priest can talk to god for you
    only a mullah can talk to allah for you
    guns for freedom

    let's examine the belief at the start of this thread:

    this is about oil

    do you think if there was enough oil to go around or it just didn't exist, then people wouldn't have something else to fight over? this is about beliefs. some beliefs are closer to reality than others, just like 'america needs oil' is probably a bit closer to reality than 'anyone not a muslim is, defacto, hellbound evil' but both are false realities and both are used as excuses to pick up a gun, a knife, a sharp stick, and go kill someone

    everytime peace in northern ireland approaches the IRA remember just how much money they make moving guns around (or whatever they do to fund themselves) and stir the whole thing up again. just when enough of them get tired of killing, a hardcore splits off and calls themselves the 'real IRA'. one day we may make peace with the 'real IRA', but then there will always be a splinter group, the new IRA, the new improved IRA, the REAL, NEW IMPROVED IRA now with 20%extra vitamin C and a pinefresh new taste!!

    likewise people are easily exploited if they can't handle a 'gap' in thier conceptual universe. words like 'god' and 'freedom' and 'terror' are used without being effectively defined. god's the biggest so i'll deal with him and let you work the rest out for yourselves...

    there may or may not be a god. simple arguments like 'here is a book he wrote' lack credibility or hard evidence. in fact, the more people try and convince me, the more freaky these people can seem. i think there's nothing wrong with the idea that there 'may or may not' be a god. my god is like schroedingers enigmatic cat, or like rovastar in his KILL EM ALL post. he may be a dependable figment of my imagination, he may be vengeful, he may be subtle, and well humoured and not keen on revealing himself because that always gets taken the wrong way. he may even be a SHE!

    the thing is, god or no god, I'm happy with that. i try and live my life in a way that offends no reasonable deity, but doesn't try and refute logic or physics either. i don't have to come off the fence on the issue of wether or not there is a god, so i'm not going to. i don't try and absolve myself from personal responsibility by saying 'what would jesus do?'

    people join organisations for thier beliefs, and these organisations are everywhere. it can be al quieda, the army, the police force, the mafia, the IRA, the PLO, the wombles, christianity, Jews For Jesus, the NRA, VJForums, the hitler youth, the dennis the menace fan club, the Church of Satan etc etc etc

    organisations help us define our identity but when we confuse ourselves with these organisations, when we give up our identity then we become the tools of systems, tools of oppression, of chaos, of death, of Kali the Destroyer, we become mindless robots, as unable to think for ourselves as a meat grinder

    the real fight is between those of us who refuse to fight and those of us who just want to pick up a gun, just want to start a fight, just want to revel in the glamour and fantasy of violence, of having power, status (even if it's imaginary afterlife status), those of us whose fear of other culture's and lifestyles has become overpowering, those of us who fear losing our cushy oil-powered lifestyles, those of us who fear the new world order

    if your wondering what you can do to end terror and war as a VJ it is this:

    Keep VJ-ing. keep editing and preparing and fiddling with tech and dancing in front of your bluescreen and doing all the things you enjoy, all the things you love, with love. keep talking to people, keep reading and running and dancing and breathing and going to the beach and loving and fucking and eating and tasting and being free

    as long as your not holding a gun or a bomb, as long as your not distributing a dogma, as long as your not stirring vats of sarin, trying to buy uranium on the black market, as long as your not strapping on body armour and preparing to hold back a riot, as long as your not a bulldozer operator in zimbabwe or a concrete wall builder in israel or an arms dealer. as long as your not watching TV and letting it make you angry and bitter.

    every minute you spend NOT involved in trying to kill or hurt people your doing the best you can. keep on doing it

    if that's not enough then you can try and root out stupidity and vagueness and wooly thinking in those around you, but to do that properly you have to root it out in yourself. you can't overide one dogma with another, you've got to deconstruct the very patterns of dogma themselves. find peace in yourself

    peace is not just an end but the means by which we achieve it
    peace is not just an end but the means by which we achieve it
    peace is not just an end but the means by which we achieve it
    peace is not just an end but the means by which we achieve it
    peace is not just an end but the means by which we achieve it
    peace is not just an end but the means by which we achieve it
    peace is not just an end but the means by which we achieve it

    M@ (i have BB code and i'm prepared to use it if i have to...)
  22. CIA

    CIA New Member

    Nail>>Head

    who said it was the iraqi's anyway??? fox news? - go figure...

    would it not be advantageous to change the topic of the G8 summit from africa et al to terrorists??

    start the clampdown - we'll soon end this noncence about "freedom"
  23. tybalt

    tybalt Artificial Lifeform

    Personal attack on Rovastar to follow....

    What kind of comment would I expect from a person so intrervined and profiting from the system? Sorry Rova I just think you are not entitled to speak up in the name of the people. You are profiting from war as your clients are profiting from war. You are one of the egocentric capitalists that make this world as problematic as it is.
    How much harder can you attack then kill 150.000 innocent Iraqies in less then two years? Compare that with the maybe 200 innocent western people that died in terrorist attacks in the last two years.
    Its sad that there are still many people out there who think like you - who think that all evil in this world comes from those that are different from you that have different standards that have different means of life.
    As I condem any kind of violence right left islamic christian hindu gangs etc etc I still think those that seek to make their voice heard against the corporate evil that distatches human from their values on the planet that is earth in a universe that is far greater then ones braincells can imagine are running out of options and the rise in terrorist activity is the attribute to this. There are those who control every media voice on the planet - who just need to speak up and their message resonates throughout the world - but their are those who might have better concept for general life - concepts that could make more then only the 5% riches persons on this planet happy - those people have no voice they have almost no medium they can speak through and some of them - in their believe that they have to counter this corporate fashism that all of the western world and its inhabitants are part of in some way - blow up bombs in the heart hoping they can bring their message across - sadly those lost souls are unaware that in return they are helping a few powerhungry bin ladens (if they even exist) and not helping the general course of a better peacefull live for the majority of the people at all.
    As for rova I would suspect you might want to travel to some distant countries - like Iraq and then make your statements again please. I would say the people over there suffer more then your little brain imagination can go and I would suggest that most people suffering over there have nothing to do with terrorists and most even don?t know why this war on terror has hit them in the first place. I would suggest that you might try to understand where all this is coming from and why people are so desparate that they put a bomb belt on their waist and blow themself up. This is no leftish view as the corporate slaves like you might portray my feeling its the current state of affairs in a world that has multiple shades of grey and not just good or bad white or black.

    I would suggest reading Aldus Huxleys Brave New World when you want to know what the corporate masters are having as a plan for the western world of the future - a future I would not like to live in personally and a future I would fight with my personal life also against you as it has to be. As long as there are people like you this world will see more bombings more death and more violence. War is never a solution and one would thought that great mankind would be over this now and would continue to evolve with all that they have accomplished. Yes we hate we kill we murder each other in the believe that one is better then the other - in the end we are all humans on a tiny planet in a never ending universe and all that we kill is ourself.
  24. Anyone

    Anyone New Member

    I posted something else earlier,

    which I regret, due to bad context in the light of recent events in my town
    I have now deleted it, apologies to those I have offended in the process...

    Oli
  25. complexvisuals

    complexvisuals Eye Squared

    Re: Personal attack on Rovastar to follow....

    Oh for fucks sake, Rova isnt allowed to speak on behalf of people because he makes money? Stupidest thing I've heard in a long FalK.

    Unless you totally isolate yourself, you are going to profit someone, thats just the way it is.

    Get down off your "insert cause here" highhorse.

    C
  26. DrEskaton

    DrEskaton Triple Hexagon, Osaka

    my solution:

    impeach Bush for lying to congress and the US people about his reasons for going to war.

    hand over Iraq to a UN force made of mostly arabic troops until it stabilises.

    Finish the job properly in Afghanistan, again it can be a UN protectorate until it stabilises.

    Force a solution to the Isreali / Palestinian coflict, US to withdraw all aid to Israel until it's resolved. in particular dismantle the illegal wall and settlements. Give the Palestinians Bethlehem, they've had enough shit they deserve something back.

    Embark on a massive program to develop alternative energy sources including Fusion research but in all likelihood Nuclear fission is the only short term solution to reduce green house emissions and cut dependance on oil.

    That would cut the root causes of terrorism out and leave them with litle to no popular support.
  27. PilotX

    PilotX Tom syzygy, not Dan ;)

    my sympathies go out to everyone affected by the violence yesterday,


    I agree with you. There have always been cunts in this world, and there always will be. every belief system has people who seek to exploit it to further their own cuntish ends (see the Crusades or Spanish Inquisition for "Christianity" or the Pharacee (sp?) for "Judaism" and think about Al-Qaedas relationship to Islam.

    Fundamentally though I agree with Sleepy - matt your point about the IRA doesn't hold fuilly imo - yes there are splinter groups, but these are smaller (although it seems much of the IRA has made a simple sideways move into drugs & arms supply rather than actually blowing things up) - the numbers of people are smaller, and thus less able to carry out actions .. by marginalising the terrorists, and presenting alternative methods for greivances to be resolved, and most importantly by taking actions to minimise any further grievances, then there will be fewer terrorists.

    I agree with your last point - the most important thing is to live a peaceful life. But I don't think it's enough:

    in this situation, look at the kinds of people involved - at one end you have the individually innocent victims & those who are entirely against violence. At the other end you have the totally guilty perpertrators & their explicit supporters. In the middle you have the politicians/"the Nation" & people who sympathise with the cause..
    imo it is those people who sympathise with what has happened who are most important - these are the people who need to be convinced that taking this kind of action is not the right thing to be doing.

    There are essentially two arguments that I can think to take for this:
    1) Moral argument
    2) Action will not achieve your aims

    I think the first is too difficult to take on aynthing but an individual basis. the second however is different - i think this can be achieved through "the Nation" continuing as normal and not retailiating in kind
    Of course I say in kind - I mean violently, rather than by setting of some small explosive devices somewhere - a retailiation in kind by the west would involve many more explosives and probably deaths.

    I also think it is important to present peaceful means of change.. this is fundamentally more difficult with a globally based terrorist "network" since their aims (as much as they are stated) are not erally politically achievable..
    at the top it is imo the old thirst for power. at the bottom (where we must seek to make our point) it is more likely desperate and/or weak individuals, who are inducted into a cult .. remove the reasons for them and you won't have a terrorist problem.

    not really sure what my point is here, such a long post you'd think I'd have one. but really I don't have a fucking clue why anyone would consider terrorism to be a worthwhile course of action.


    (((London)))
  28. qwerty

    qwerty New Member

    Whats with the bleating sheep?

    60 million uk population

    514,250* natural deaths in england and wales per year.

    50-100 extra londoners is about as signifigant as a mild outbreak of the flu.

    The odds of anyone you know being a victim are slim to negligable, but as usual the forum wants to buy into the drama.

    Geldof reckoned that the daily African death count would be a big deal if it was happening in the UK. From that POV why all the hype and excitement over the loss of a few stray Londoners? How many died in Africa yesterday?

    Has any of the plastic faced hype merchants on TV Stopped hosting for ratings long enough to speculate on why London went bang?

    Tony yackking that Terrorists will never win.
    Its nothing new, just evolution in progress, The majority rule vs the independant fight for survival.

    The UK is at war. Wars are about death and destruction.

    Why is the UK media getting into a flap that the war followed them home?

    Rova is right.
    Its like a pub brawl, dont start what you cant finish, cause once it starts theres no negotiation, no mercy and no turning back.

    people dead is sad, a city in denial of being involved in a war is sadder. The media circus over all this is sickening and pandering to the fear factor.


    Right or wrong this war was started.
    The only way to win a war is to finish the fight. if not this crap will keep on comming back the is no such thing as a civilised war.
  29. complexvisuals

    complexvisuals Eye Squared

    Few first posters here. Who are you? Why you hiding?
  30. DrEskaton

    DrEskaton Triple Hexagon, Osaka



    I'm presuming that you were not actually caught up in the events yesterday.

    If you were you would understand that fear is why it's significant. Yes the fear is irrational but telling yourself that doesn't actually help when you are in the middle of it and getting hit from all sides by rumors, incomplete accounts of what is happening etc.

    A flu outbreak does not provide the same fear factor. (maybe it should with bird flu but that's another issue).

    Personally I would like to be to get on with my life in peace without the risk (however small) of someone tryng to blow me up on the way to work.

    read my solutions above.

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