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London under attack, and what we can do to end terrorism

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by vjpixylight, Jul 7, 2005.

  1. karl

    karl Sex, Drugs and Videogames

    Don't get worked up about Isreal and Palestinia. Holly, your points are valid and your anger is shared by a whole generation of Pelestinians and Israelis has seen how the roadmap to peace, envisioned by people like Simon Perz that wanted to pay for eveerything, been shreed to pieces by extremists.

    Paliestinians are used as willing pawns. But we can not ignore that this seems to be part of the moral ground these criminals claim to hold. This is the flame in their Robin Hood myth.
  2. disassembler

    disassembler Mix+Mix+Chop+Chop

    The fact is that US did not pay for the palastinian country the same as we paid for the Israeli country, that is the point.

    Certainly you cannot trust a country that supported kicking you out of your land. The Jews do not deserve Israel for what happened in Germany, its like giving the Native Americans the France ( it is one of the possible origins of North American Indians, their spiritual origin). The Jews deserve land in Germany. Obviously there is anti-semitism everywhere.

    The Israeli's are saints aren't they Holly?
    Sharon is only protecting his people, while slowly creeping further and further.

    So the US decided to give New York to the Jews for what happened in Germany. I'm certain Texas would have nothing to say about that. Not only did the New Yorkies have to get out but New Israel is militarily supported by take your pick (china/USSR).
    Why don't we have a base is China?

    You mean Israel, with the US , come in and bomb Saddam. Why were we in Iraq during Desert Storm again? Oh yeah, to help the Saudi's(our military base & oil) and protect Tel Aviv(our other military base and christian/zionist).

    You bring up a war that happened is 1967, which is a direct result of the invasion of the Jews.

    The Native Americans faught against the Anglo settlers and you know the rest of the story. Those hateful savages just were caught up in crap rhetoric for backwards yokals with no cosmopolitain sophistification. Hmmmm!

    Once people get what they want the aren't so violent anymore.
    You can't attack Israel because your messing with Texas when you do. So attack Texas and see if it will give up Israel.

    Huh hmmmm! Easy cowgirl, sounds like every Government but Canada. God save the queen.

    We have frats that do it for the fun of it, we are so cosmopolitan.

    So because the womens rights is fucked up the Palestinians deserve to be kicked out of their homes and off their land, and the rest of the middle east shouldn't be concerned that the US/Brits will take over their country and kill most of them just like the Native Americans. History shows this is how things work.

    Buddhist and the Chinese perhaps may be a more recent example.

    How exactly do we get the things that make a booming economy, restaraunts, and nightclubs. From employing children in foreign sweat shops, shear cropping the rainforests, and ensuring the Dollar not the Euro remains the worlds strongest. Oh and let's not forget about oil.

    The key to winning the Capitalist game is to use everyone elses resources and save your own, until the end of the game. Turn people against eachother to create a distraction and take care of our problem for us.

    For example:
    Training Iraq how to use Chemical weapons on the Iranies.
    Training Bin Laden to fight the Russians.
    Training Afgani's to fight Bin Laden and the Taliban.

    Bin Laden smelled it out, and realized you don't love me you just love my Doggy style (oil).

    Where did that booming economy go? Evidently suicide bombing is effective at some level.

    From your comments Holly you sound like you support the Bush's mission in the Middle East. You'll get those women abusing Arabs.

    Please do address my original questions. Lets talk about how Israel impacted the current state of the middle east, because it obviously is the keystone in the terrorist structure.

    Israel's greatest allies are the US and Britain. The terrorist aren't attacking China.
  3. littlecatalyst

    littlecatalyst Retireded

    go D go! (personaly im glad to see you speak your poli mind...)

    i said i would back out but...... I agree with a lot of what diss is saying... tho

    -1 didnt US go to gulfwar I for kuait, so Dizni could make Alladin, and to test out a shitload of new pharmaceuticals??
    1) you dont stress enough that israel is really a pawn for UK/US interests... keeping a destabilized middle east works great (or did for 40 years) to secure oil and insanity to keep the dead machine rolling along......
    2) why oh why are pal;estinians only used as martyrs when they are treated like human shit in the rest of the middle east (its as if they aren't worth anything but mennuial labour and an ideal to fight for)
    3) why is Jordan never villified? 75% of palestine is now called jordan (and tehre are more palestinians in jordan than in 'palestine' what is different about that space than the gaza ferexample
    4) i really wanna stress that i am not a zionist - in fact promised myself to never go to israel until israelis turn their deserts into orchards like they did their own) at the same time i dop believe 4a) that jews have a right to a homeland and 4b) not a jewish STATE (any state is evil, full of shit and sure to be corrupted)
    5) jews and arabs got along fine (even in Iraq, except when they were a courtin' the nazis in the 30s) the probelm isn't jew vs. arab... its actually an askenazi thing (i am ashkenazi) jews from morocco, iraq, egypt, et cetera lived in harmony with arabs for over a thousand years till the STATE happened

    lastly, 6) there's even more problems in the STATE, ferexaple, Ashkenaz, while a minority in israel rule the politics and are the ruling class... and the lower you go down the totempole (from moroccans toyemenites, to 'bene israel' to 'falashas') ironically, the darker the skin gets... pretty fucked for a home for all jews. not to mention ashkenaz are most likeley the only group there that has no real true link to that land (most ashkenaz i.e. european jewry, descended from the Khazar conversion of 600AD-- Khazars were descendents of the Huns and i'm fucking proud to be part of that tribe.. you wanna fuck with Atilla the Hun?? see, there were likely no blue-eyed jews in King Solomons time (in fact he said in his song of songs "I am black I am beautiful." splain me that one whitey)so maybe its fine for the other
    12 tribe descendants to go to israel, but personally i would rather have gotten back my homeland; i.e. the Caucasious mountains....

    all that being said, does not discount teh awesome work that the ShalomAchshav people are doing... as wlel theres an awesome town where paletinians and israelis go to school together, live together and do it well.... the psy groups like RayV is involved with are total humanitarians, and there are even a lot of gay couples that are Isr/Pal and that rocks! Way to go Bent world! you'll show those straights......

    [shrug] and i thought i was out of this conversation.... [/shrug]
  4. littlecatalyst

    littlecatalyst Retireded

    oh uh, in caser y'all think im talking out of my ass about the khazars.... it's a fact, jack
  5. holly

    holly WetCircuit.com

    No, China has it's own terrorists.

    You can't mix and match minorities. Palistine is NOT equivicable to American Indians, and it is not official Isreali policy to "kill every last Palistinian", nor was it the goal of Indian races to kill every last european. Palestine would have (half) a leg to stand on if it weren't for Ghandi's succesful protests mentioned earlier in this thread. I'm not sanctifying the Isreali people, I'm saying they are just like us, but living in a really bad ghetto. Yeah, there are warhawks and conservatives in their govt, same as us, but they still don't advocate genocide and neither are "WE" (at the moment anyway). Seeing as how WE are responsible for that lousy address, it looks like WE are responsible to pay for their barbwire, etc. And if Palistine had gone for the same deal, we'd have set them up sweet like we did all our other colonies, spared no expense and Starbucks for all.

    I use to think the Isreali wall was an atrocity but then I started learning a little more about Palestine history (and Egypt etc) and that they could have gotten the SAME deal as Isreal.... There can BE NO PEACE PROCESS when one side insists on genocide and removal of the other! And which Egyptian Pres was murdered for signing a treaty with Isreal??? It's a no-win situation for Islam countries and their leaders. Make a deal towards peace and get assassinated by your own people. How do you get off that ride?

    And the wall wasn't an original part of the plan. If you're considered too darkie to live in the white neighborhood (Europe), so they move you into the projects, you'd probably invest in some security measures too after the locals killed off a few of your friends and family. Isreal used to be a mixed and open society but one too many weddings and discos being blowed up and there goes the neighborhood. Sorry Diss, you live in a crappy neighborhood, why don't you up and leave since it obviously should belong to the crooks, right?

    Now I see the wall as an extreme solution -- not as extreme as genocide but more extreme than peacetalks certainly. It's a solution after peacetalks have failed. It's not MY solution, and it's not MY country, so really it's up to Isreal to figure out how to deal with "their" Palestine problem. Everyone bitches about Western interferance, but somehow that rule doesn't apply to Isreal. Why? Isn't that just racism? How do people just decide who's right and who's wrong? We're mature enough to recognize the man with the gun isn't always right, why can't we acknoledge the man with the backpack bomb isn't always right? Again, racism? Always root for the underdog? Bah, Palestine is a strangled society with NO personal freedoms. They kill themselves like ghetto gangs and blame the people with the big nice houses. Better men than you and I have tried to intervene in the name of peace with no results. There is nothing to "compromise". Their RobinHoods stay in power like mafia, and reward the families of suicide bombers. People are PAID to blow themselves up. It's a crime.

    I use to see this wall as like the Berlin Wall: a political machine to terrorize and imprison people, but there was an earlier wall too: The Wall of China which was built to keep out the Mongol hords who raided daily and then retreated to hide among the peasents, so the Emperor built the GREAT wall, one of the greatest construction acheivements in history, and it worked. China spent the next thousand years developing a society beyond all of Europe while their mongol neighbors remained barbarians and developed nothing (yeah, eventually they got in, but not before China invented everything from gunpowder to toothpaste. I'll always side with the progressive society not the barbarians). My near ancestors are from a raider clan (Apache) and let me tell you, while the Hopi and Navaho were developing cities, science, and a society that harmonized with their surroundings, the Apache developed nothing but the skills to steal and kill and hide. Ironic, I suppose that this kept them free the longest, but shit, I wouldn't call that living.
  6. DrEskaton

    DrEskaton Triple Hexagon, Osaka

    a lot of your stuff is just factually wrong holly, all official governments in the middle east have now recognized the right of Israel to exist. And I completely fail to understand how it's the obligation of the US to pay for Israel, they weren't the agressors in WWII?

    You can't say leave it to Isreal and don't interfere, look how many times the US vetoed UN resolutions critical of Israel. The US is interfering constantly on one side and that's the issue.....

    talk about now, you won't find a solution in the wrongs of the past which were many and varied on both sides.
  7. holly

    holly WetCircuit.com

    I don't advocate US paying for Isreal. I don't advocate US paying for the UN. US people don't even know what WE pay for. There are tons of others we buy weapons for too, or sell weapons in exchange for small favors: Pakistan and Saudi included.

    My point is/was that blaming Isreal for all the Middle East woes is overrated (inflated?), and saying that "desolving Isreal" (which was suggested earlier in this thread) seems an odd solution for people who complain the USA interferes too much as it is. Isreal's wall is their harsh solution to what is obviously a harsh area. Blair and Bush want to close borders, and this is a wall of sorts, and a few criticisms of this policy suggest it is a late development..., other countries (France was specifically mentioned) are much harsher about their borders.... I could see London and NewYork creating their own borders with their own rules of entry.... In the ancient world all citystates had walls. Maybe we are backsliding into the way things have always been?
  8. holly

    holly WetCircuit.com

    I can't believe you expect me to take any of your statements seriously if this is how you respond. Court-ordered rape? Excuse me?

    How exactly do we get the things that make a booming economy, restaraunts, and nightclubs. From employing children in foreign sweat shops, shear cropping the rainforests, and ensuring the Dollar not the Euro remains the worlds strongest. Oh and let's not forget about oil.
    :rolleyes: You don't HAVE to have a sweatshop to have a restaraunt. You need safe streets, a stable govt, and the ability to just make your business work without paying tripple what we'd pay in taxes to extortionists, bribing officials, "protection" money.... We all had mafia here 50 years ago, but for the most part our cities have cleaned up. I suppose there is always a percentage of govt that will be corrupt in ANY system (human nature?) but with transparancy and a critical media you prevent corruption from being institutional, and try to keep it down to an average sleazy politician under the table level. At the very least you try not to let organized crime run the show.

    The key to winning the Capitalist game is to use everyone elses resources and save your own, until the end of the game. Turn people against eachother to create a distraction and take care of our problem for us.
    It seems that way for Bush. But you don't have to WIN the capitalist "game". To continue your patripatronizing sports analogy: it's not about winning, it's about being a team player, and getting everyone up to score. China and India are going to be great because as they grow they will "play the game" in their own ways. With prosperity and economic growth comes the exporting of culture and values. Influence. We all want a new mega-culture for the new century. Yippie India and China! Their not backsliding into feudal history, and in 10 years as India's population overtakes China's we'll see the age of The East and have a whole new set of arrogant conquerors to bitch about.

    From your comments Holly you sound like you support the Bush's mission in the Middle East. You'll get those women abusing Arabs. Bush is an ass. That's a given that isn't worth discussion or baiting. I SOO want that fat slug Rove to bring down the whitehouse, but we've seen power transfer beyond presidential terms. The current crop of fogies have been in and out of the whitehouse for decades. They're not going away. Democrats or somebody has to evolve to get rid of them..., or else the neocons will just run it all into the ground with vendettas and paybacks. It'll end one day, one way or other.

    Sure, I'll be happy when it's men who are decreed to be raped. Some men need to be raped. That has nothing to do with Arabs.
  9. 3YE

    3YE UndergrounD

    wow, lot gone on while i was away. read it all back and these are my thoughts:

    Freedom versus Security

    there is no freedom without stability. wherever there's conflict or inequality there's a lack of freedom. people are confined by tribal thinking - my tribe, my 'hood, my people, my religion, my country, my ass. try thinking 'our planet' instead. sure, impeach bush, topple Blair, what are you going to replace them with? remember western stability is based on political, economic religious and social compromise. to depose a world leader in favour of any one of these causes will have negative effects in terms of the other three. i'm not saying i support bush, i'm not an apologist, but it seems that lasting beneficial change is always slow, and it's easy to forget how far we've come. rapid interventions are almost universally negative in outcome whereas it's the slower, more certain movements that effect the most positive change. in that sense the the slowest revolutions are the most profound. so F*ck the revolution, give me...

    education education education

    to recap on some basic tenets of good education already covered in this thread - how you don't reward bad behaviour with attention, you ignore it (and that means limit, undermine, exclude, not just put on rose tinted specs), how people need to be aware that war isn't the product of anything but the hijacking of the mind by the reptilian part of the brain, and most importantly about how good education is based on inclusion. people are shocked that the London Bombers we're 2nd and 3rd generation british muslims, but Muslim society in britain tends to be very self-excluding, up to the point of muslim communities demanding recently for all-islamic schools and generally being in favour of a kind of self-enforced segregation. now it's clear that that doesn't work, and that it's as ridiculous as calling for an all white school. we have to learn to live together and that must start at school before our tired old adult brains get stuck in thier ways. it's one thing to dislike someone because you know them, it's another to hate a culture because nothing in your education prepared you for accepting and evaluating new and different information. if we are going to come out of the darkness, we're going to need a little light.

    Matriarchs and Patriarchs (or Mama's and Papa's):

    I run a small, humble home network. it's a pile of beige boxes of differing sizes and abilities, but it's built on a set of common standards, and so in one sense there's no difference between this set up and oh...say, the google server network, or the world banking network, or NORAD, or the Machine Matrix of the Warchowskis. the same goes for human structures and networks and behaviours. there is, on a very fundamental level, no difference between a childish playground spat and any large scale war. anybody here who has been in a state of personal conflict must understand the feelings of confusion, the conflicting elements in thier own psyche as memory, expectation, ego, fear etc wrestle for control of our minds and seek to dominate the situation. the same must go for countries as for bacteria teeming on a microscope slide. chemistry, emotions, information teem and flow through and between entities, mediating both sex and violence, the need to feed and breed. in so much as western society is ruled by money and therefore by issues of power, security, strength, then it is a matriarchal society, selecting for those things that DNA and the mother godess seeks in all her progeny - Genetic Fitness, survival traits. but the same is true of eastern societies too, again power, strength and security are positively selected for - the families of suicide bombers recieve enhanced reproductive status in exchange for a blow at the percieved enemy, (just as the families of kamikaze pilots recieved rewards and status, and as our own veterans and war dead bring preferences and priveleges to thier own families (perhaps we should be elevating warriors in the mould of the samurai, rather than soldiers ie killing robots, in status). qwerty was trolling, but there's a tiny seed of truth (i say seed because it is undeveloped, but holds promise of a flower one day, or we can at least hope...) in what he's saying, that in all our societal, economic and religious structures we are merely playing out the urges of DNA, and in turn of nature, and therefore of physics.

    now there are those that argue we live in a Patriarchal society because we have a 'man' in charge, but that is false assumption because he's not in charge. in terms of ape politics he is the alpha male, but in that sense he is no more in charge of 'the system' than Lance Armstrong is in charge of the Tour De France. or to put it another way, Bush is just a player, not the gamemaster. however, as stated before, these alpha males provide the stability and security required to nurture better offspring. and as humanities strength is in it's intelligence, rather than physical prowess and aggression, it can only be hoped that the current fragile stability, such as it is, can be used to nurture more intelligent, balanced offspring.

    so where is the patriarchal element? in paganism there is the little known Lu, the south americans had Viracocha, Neal Stephenson refers ambiguously to Enoch Root and the Aborigines of australia tell ancient stories of old man Kun Man Gur. the true patriarch is in the spirit of light and enlightenment, the civilising influence, the hidden knowledge which brings peace and stability in contrast to the eternal reddening of both tooth and claw that characterises the drives of mother nature. as a being of light such an archetype can never be incarnated, although the awareness is always there, hardwired into our brains, and this is how we (the species) can become mistakenly enamoured by the fake patriarchs such as Bush, Abu Hamza, and all the other crotchety old men who would lure our young studs into death and war with promises of a better life after the war, be it in the next life or at the end of thier tour of duty.

    it is my belief that no amount of politics, religion or any other rule system can bring peace on earth. depose one leader, another nastier beast takes thier place. end a war and your soldiers become your terrorists, because when we're all on the same side, who are the killing machines going to kill, given that they know nothing else?

    when every single human being on the planet can become self aware, in control of thier own actions, unswayed by the media or the church or any message designed to provoke an emotional response rather than carry information, when everybody can end the war in thier own minds and hearts and find peace will we have peace on earth.

    <gets off soapbox>

    (ooh, get me, i'm like ghandi or summat!)

  10. direktor

    direktor New Member

    get info about the thing

    What I can say pips...things are geting burny in this topic and... and in the same time boring, boring in the way, that I did't get any new info, same clishe and stereotypes are used, all that comon sence with diffrent pro-us/ anty-us angles, from ultrafemale to mega open minded way of man thinking, BORING:sad:
    what we, okey felas.. me...need.. is info about the situation from the beginig,

    you know all crap didn't start from not 9/11 and not in afganistan, even vietnam wasn't a begining..wheere, wheeen, whyyy..
    from scratch you know...

    I can advice you to see
    BBC TV series

    The Power of Nightmares by Adam Curtis

    ---some extras form BBC tv series


    In the past our politicians offered us dreams of a better world. Now they promise to protect us from nightmares.

    The most frightening of these is the threat of an international terror network. But just as the dreams were not true, neither are these nightmares.

    In a new series, the Power of Nightmares explores how the idea that we are threatened by a hidden and organised terrorist network is an illusion.

    It is a myth that has spread unquestioned through politics, the security services and the international media.

    Three part series

    I: Baby It's Cold Outside
    II: The Phantom Victory
    III: The Shadows In The Cave
    At the heart of the story are two groups: the American neo-conservatives and the radical Islamists.

    Both were idealists who were born out of the failure of the liberal dream to build a better world.
    These two groups have changed the world but not in the way either intended.
    Those with the darkest fears became the most powerful
    Together they created today's nightmare vision of an organised terror network.
    A fantasy that politicians then found restored their power and authority in a disillusioned age. Those with the darkest fears became the most powerful.
    The rise of the politics of fear begins in 1949 with two men whose radical ideas would inspire the attack of 9/11 and influence the neo-conservative movement that dominates Washington.

    The Power of Nightmares: The Phantom Victory

    On 25 December 1979, Soviet forces invaded Afghanistan.
    Moscow was able to install a friendly government in a neighbouring country but at a price.
    The invasion gave a common cause to an extraordinary alliance of radical Islamists in Afghanistan and around the world and to the neo-conservatives in the US.
    It was a key battleground of the Cold War.

    The Power of Nightmares: The Shadows In The Cave
    In the wake of the shock and panic created by the devastating attack on the World Trade Center on 11 September, 2001, the neo-conservatives reconstructed the radical Islamists in the image of their last evil enemy, the Soviet Union - a sinister web of terror run from the centre by Osama Bin Laden in his lair in Afghanistan.

    read this please
    Power of Nightmares re-awakened
    to get some idea what MAN is thinking, and thinking for REAL, I mean he is in thinking not just proving and telling process.

    It's so mach new info in it..must see..
    where to get it? removed
    grab and see it, and after 24 hours delete it, so copyrights folks can slip well

    :We don't link to copyrighted material here. Link removed. - Rovastar

    And show me love for %ack sake:love2: you bloody haters :grrr
  11. littlecatalyst

    littlecatalyst Retireded

    thanks for the pirates bay link! fun fun....

    personally even though i am ovbiously one pegged down as a tinfoiler, i dont believe in consiracies... to me its much more like that book title, "a confederacy of dunces" you know, theres a convergence of greed, self interest, hubris and the other deadly sinz.... but no cigarette smoking man, and the rothchildes are more interested in wine than ruling the worlds events ((or maybe they are shape shifting lizards but still stupid losers as compared
    to the infinite knowlege -and sense of humor-- of the cosmos))

    So, direktor, is it in our minds? that's a possibility.. i mean especially since i finally saw what teh bleep do we know.. where they postulate (as have many a guru an dboohoo) that all these things are outer manifestations of our inner self.... so if the mind thinks it... the cosmos creates it. So i guess if that's where we end up in this polisci circle jerk, kewel, it's our fault. cause we dont think enough of our own selves. so all we gotta do is love ourselves and it will all go away... nice. like john lennin said, all you need is love..... yay!
  12. littlecatalyst

    littlecatalyst Retireded

  13. holly

    holly WetCircuit.com

    :p har har har.
    Conspiracy of Dunces. That one I believe!

    I still don't get the "it's our fault because we don't love ourselves". It's just a bit too close to: "God punishes us because we are faithless", or the eco-Gaia version: "If you waste the Earth's resources then primitive people (the protectors of Mother Earth) will give you the spiritual whammy". Did you ever see that Australian film THE WAVE...? I mean it's all bound up in this "I am the center of the universe and my actions have consequences on world affairs" mantra of self-importance. Egocentric, it just manifests different self-sin scenarios based on the individual's philosophy.

    It is apparently too late to divert the Titanic we call modern living to smoothly transition from oil to other forms of energy.... I'm not sure that the collapse of the oil market would end all MiddleEast violence, but it would probably take a lot of the funding out of it (our side of the war that is). But how long before China and India need oil? Is that maybe the "real" conflict? That US and Euro have competition at the dinner table? We are calling dibs before the next coldwar starts.

    Is newculer all that bad? Can't the waste be launched into the sun instead of being converted into stockpile weapons? Solar blows unless you live in Arizona. If I bought an old Russian warhead on the blackmarket could I run my studio off it indefinately?
  14. littlecatalyst

    littlecatalyst Retireded

    no it doesnt! ok it wont work where you live.... but even over the bridge like on skyvat's house it would totally work.... some guy up here (in chilly canada brrrr) just put a whackload of solar shingles on his roof, they're sposda produce 15-18W ea (he has 150 on the roof which does him fine) and guess what up here he's getting 21W each.

    what blows about it has been the reluctance of the industry to deal with oit like any other thing (like a car ferinstance-- how many woudl be bought daily if there was no financing? or houses... but you're (up to now) expected to drop $16K on your system? but that is changing fast! ...a new company from Maryland (Sun Edison) just started rolling out a plan where they put all teh panels up on your roof, you pay nothing and just agree to buy electricity from them till its paid off(+) then its yours to keep..... it has not been practicle just because it hasn't been made to be (and the hostory of PV Panels too--- again only a confederacy no consy, but the biggest manufacturers of PV were traditionally owned by oil cos, and they spent most of tehir time suing other manufacturers of panels.... its only been a decade + that they hav etaken it seriously (oh and now what with Japans subsidies, they are now producing 2 panels for every one north american....)

    me i'm more excited about shit like the spary-on PV nanofilms that you can spray onto clothes, yor front door.... but still the bottom line is its totally doable, just has a crappy reputation

    as for the within/wothout dogma thing-- i dunno-- seems like it does happen... but how can anyone know for sure? anyway thats just what teh WTBDWRK movie said (and some woman i once took a worksho with but i don't know for sure if she was from this dimention.... could never find her afterwards, and was never really sure that i took the (weekend long) workshop at all (?) ity was one of those weird things.... who knows, but at least its the one place where every one individual (f those really exist) can do something.... alther their own thoughts..... we can't dismantle bombs or do hostage negotiations or even talk someone into dropping the coffee can full of nails..... but we can change ourthoughts about our self. In WTBDWRK they talk about this group that organized a massive group meditation month in Washinton DV to drop the crime rate by 25% something the chief of police said was impossible to do not only by meditating but by anything except a 2 foot snowfall.. but when crime dropped by 25% (like they said it would after doing it in 40 previous cities) the chief of police was right into it!

    and hey even if it doent change the world and bring about nirvanah, can't hurt ones own self image now can it?

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