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Projection mapping patent granted in the US

Discussion in 'Law & Ethics Discussions' started by MoRpH, Jan 12, 2012.

  1. MoRpH

    MoRpH Moderator

    Anyone else seen the bullshit patent thats been awarded in the US for projection mapping?? Pretty much seems that @klipcollective has been granted a patent on something we all know has a long and varied history in our scene.

    Rather ridiculous really, you can see there tweets here https://twitter.com/#!/klipcollective and tell them they are full of it....

    Thanks to Josh Goldberg @wugmump for bringing it to my attention & I see @_vade is having words too.

    I'm not sure how the rest of you feel but, as with many aspects of what we do there is a communal genepool to our art and this goes against everything that stands for

    I think its our duty to seek out prior art to get rid of this greedy grab.
     
  2. vjair

    vjair Making Shapes

    is there any deeper info on this and if / wether it affects any of us in what we do?

    i wonder if the patent is still available on paper and pens....
     
  3. amoeba

    amoeba New Member

  4. Basquez

    Basquez New Member

    Yeah, I am not okay with this patent and am going to do everything in my power to reverse it.
     
  5. deepvisual

    deepvisual visually challenged

    hopefully, they'll use their aug 2008 patent to sue me for this video I put online on 30 july 2008



    and this video I put online on Nov 12 2007



    this mapping job I did in 2000


    [​IMG]


    and this one in 1998


    [​IMG]


    or maybe the Taejon Expo in 1993 -


    [​IMG]


    Photo taken August 6th 1993 at rehearsals for the opening show of the Taejon Expo. We can clearly see the skulls are mapped to fit the back of the stage set while the foreground 'monster' has been rotated in 3D to lie flat on the floor of the stage. Single composite image mapped to multiple surfaces via one high power projector.
    Projection design and implementation by Gary Oldknow - deepvisual
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 14, 2013
  6. alfaleader

    alfaleader Member

    The US patent system is really stupid. Patent trolls in vjing :S

    In europe, this system works. If you invent something you will get royalties, but you can't patent things that are so widely used.
     
  7. vjneef

    vjneef -------

    stupid americans
    didn't read the whole thing ;)
    but I cannot understand if there is one specific technical invention or if it's the specific combination of certain standard equipment that has been patented.
    it shouldn't be hard to find examples of mapping before this patent, but does that make the the patent invalid?
     
  8. devonmiles

    devonmiles Midi: the language of God

    seems like its more about a specific hardware software combo, which they developed for the task of projection mapping. something like the addict server or the hippo. all in all the bullshit detector senses a PR stunt, as claiming to have a patent on something stirs a lot more attention when approaching big corporate clients than just telling them, "uh we are doing this sort of projections on buildings, you know, like everyone else" .
     
  9. dEp

    dEp Member

    fuck patents.
     
  10. PCProject

    PCProject Moderator

    Was it you who projected the Minsitry of Sound logo onto parliament in the early 90's?
     
  11. PRICKIMAGE

    PRICKIMAGE New Member

    Love to see people like this try to sue deepvisual & others...

    Def looks like a PR exercise to confuse corporate clients with large budgets...Americans are funny people...
     
  12. deepvisual

    deepvisual visually challenged

    It wasnt parliament, it was buckingham palace, the same week charles and diana divorced. I refused to do it as if someone had projected that onto my house while I was getting divorced, I'd be very upset..
    it wasnt just the MOS logo, it said - MOS - lasts longer than a royal wedding..

    but I worked freelance for Labyrinth the company that did that one and the Gail Porter thing too... although the first UK 'pirate' projection was a picture of Jimi Hendrix onto the houses of parliament with the words - 'white collar conservatives, pointing their plastic fingers at me' Ben Sullivan did the projection, I took the photos.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2012
  13. pixelschubser

    pixelschubser Member

    i know that there is a german group which have a patent too on mapping - but they said that in the meantime its a technique used by so many that they wont to any steps into direction of justice
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2012
  14. devonmiles

    devonmiles Midi: the language of God

    and at the end, a patent is just worth exactly that amount of money you can afford to legally enforce it. a lawsuit is a desastrous costly thing and no vj team in the world has the financial backing to bring a lenghty patent infringement court case to an successful end.
    by this regards: map on, fellow VJs :)
     
  15. amoeba

    amoeba New Member

    i say we post pictures ov our balls/appropriate appendage to some other american mapping crew that go and map their office with them over most of @deepvisual and other early practitioners work.
     
  16. deepvisual

    deepvisual visually challenged

    not so.. unfortunately.

    should one of their lawyers turn up at one of your gigs with a cease and desist order, you'd have to be pretty sure you could afford to fight the case and win before you proceed. Client might bottle out anyway...
    Same goes for our friends at Garagecube. Can they really afford to fight a case even if they know they are in the right?

    This whole business totally sucks, but hey, you get opportunistic people in all walks of life and you never know, maybe they really do believe they invented mapping. They just happen to be mistaken.

    as an aside, I was contacted by an academic who was researching the origins of mapping and he too was baffled as to how Klip could claim to be the originators when other people were doing it while they were still at school...
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2012
  17. deepvisual

    deepvisual visually challenged

    [​IMG]

    in case you missed it above...
    mapping circa 1993
     
  18. deepvisual

    deepvisual visually challenged

    ok

    I found this

    so thats 5 years after my above example... yawn.
     
  19. deepvisual

    deepvisual visually challenged

    [​IMG]

    Projection of 1993 Harrods Xmas Decorations - showing successful arrangement of imagery on the front of the building - avoiding windows - by architectural projection mapping. The image on the right shows the template that was used to create the projection imagery.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2012
  20. vjneef

    vjneef -------

  21. deepvisual

    deepvisual visually challenged

    thanks VJNeef.


    It does none of us any good whatsoever for our mutual abilities to be owned and controlled by one person, regardless of their professed intentions.

    anyway, its just a matter of time before this one is nixed...

    35 U.S.C. 102 Conditions for patentability; novelty and loss of right to patent. - Patent Laws

    A person shall be entitled to a patent unless -
    (f) he did not himself invent the subject matter sought to be patented,
     
  22. RayV

    RayV =] ++ [=

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 14, 2013
  23. high1memo

    high1memo maker of abstract sh*t

  24. Kyle

    Kyle "Hello my VJ friend"

    :shrug:Seriously why bash all Americans. You hurt my internet feelings.
     
  25. deepvisual

    deepvisual visually challenged


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    hi memo...
    interesting as they are, I cant see a Judge looking at these and seeing a connection between projecting a face onto a face, or a room onto a room and this specific patent, which is for projection mapping onto architecture.

     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2012
  26. vjneef

    vjneef -------

    Sorry Kyle, I didn't mean you ;)
    It's just that in america it seems like everything is patentable and (most) people seem to think that's normal.
    It seems like people are not allowed to do things themselves anymore because almost everything that can be done is connected to a patent.
    Actually europe isn't much better I guess. So stupid europeans too.
    maybe someone should write down the method for doin videomapping and make it open source.
    maybe we should ask someone at creative commons if this is possible.
    It seems that reexamining a patent is costly.
    also I still don't understand how far this patent reaches.
    if it's the specific combination of all the hardware and software, then I guess there's not much to worry about. But if it's any projection on architecture that integrates with the architecture than it's a problem.
    But I doubt that such a patent would be possible because it sounds much too general. But you can never be sure of course..
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealed_crustless_sandwich
    http://www.google.com/patents?vid=6368227
     
  27. PCProject

    PCProject Moderator

    You claimed in meat space to be Spanish.
     
  28. deepvisual

    deepvisual visually challenged

    Ok..
    so it took a while to wade through the patent in full, but in the abstract is described the following:
    which, is exactly what I describe in my advanced projection mapping video uploaded to youtube 5 days before this patent was applied for. Ruvera initially applied for a mapping patent in 2005 and the only difference between that and the 2008 application was the addition of a housing and a
    The only difference between the system described in the 2008 patent and the one in my video is the addition of a housing and mounting, which is hardly an innovation.


    A remarkable coincidence, all this information being on the internet 5 days before the patent application?
    I'll let you decide..
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2012
  29. many2

    many2 Active Member

    I do not see why there is this big drama.

    It's NOT projection mapping that is patented, just a system to do it in a certain way.

    Reminds me of Musion's patent that was discussed here years ago, which people thought was for the Pepper's ghost technique, while in fact the patent is only for the reflective film material.

    This won't prevent anyone from doing projection mapping, just as anyone is still entitled to use the Pepper's Ghost trick.

    One of my colleague has done giant mapped projection using Pigi projectors during the 80's for many very high profile events which are documented. The technique is old.

    Anyways, all you'd need is to modify the technique a bit and you'd be able to sell a kit with very similar features. Just replace the camera with a Lidar, or a 3d positioning system, or a kinect kit, whatever.

    I also believe (but might be wrong, I am no lawyer) that you can actually use a technique covered by a patent as long as you are not selling it as a product. Anyone else has heard that and has official info to back it up ?
     
  30. deepvisual

    deepvisual visually challenged

    well, we dont know that.
    what we do know, is that someone now legally owns a part or maybe all of 'projection mapping' in the USA.
    which bit of it, remains to be seen. Lets not forget that he actually legally owns this, even though in the opinion of the wider projection community its nonsense, its still legally his. He owns it by law. Until someone proves otherwise, this is the status quo.

    but - and this is the scary bit - I was told by someone who was doing a peppers ghost projection in the UK, that Musion turned up onsite just before an event with one of their lawyers and insisted that they stop.
    Even though they were technically not in breach of the patent, it caused a massive fuss and the show was delayed and nearly shut down. And would you believe the corporate client didn't like that one bit....... No one in corporate land is going to risk their job over a novelty - certainly not until the legal situation is clarified.

    Its easy to dismiss this as a publicity stunt, but if this ever develops into a litigation for anyone doing projections - and lets remember, Riveru has only said he will never pursue 'artists' - you can be its not going to be cheap to rectify and its almost certainly going to be less fuss to pay the guy off than it is to challenge him in the courts and win - and that is a luxury only a handful of people possess.. because the fact is, while there are thousands of people doing mapping today, only a handful of people will have documented evidence of their having done projection mapping prior to 1998, when Reviera 'claims' to have invented it.

    ( and yes, I am deliberately spelling his name wrong - anyone narcissistic enough to pull a stunt like this is bound to be following this thread)
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2012

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