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The big free gig debate (split from the Rocket festival thread)

Discussion in 'The Business Side' started by SteveG, Mar 18, 2008.

  1. SteveG

    SteveG Downstairs for Dancing

    I'm not starting another long argument here (Tom) however. We wonder why there is a constant battle to get VJ's recognised and paid correctly. We're never going to solve this problem or improve things as long as performing free in encouraged. Whether it's a good event to do or not, whether it's even for charity. Most performers get at least a 50% fee when doing charity events. Why should VJ continuelly be asked to perform free. Some people are making a lot of money out of some of these events...at times on the back of VJ's, amongst others agree to perform for free, in the hope that one day things will improve.

    Until VJ's on mass start refusing to do this then look forward to things remaining the same on the Club and festival circuit. Poorly or unpaid work which brings you very little in the way of extra work as normally your not even advertised and a couple of tickets for an event which your working on. If people are loosing a lot of money then why run the event, keep in mind an event can loose money but individuals running the event can still be getting paid a decent wage from it. (Not that I'm saying Rocket is one of these type of festivals)

    Some on the forum have very strong views on politics, it's such a shame they didn't have the same conviction when fighting for fair pay and conditions for VJ's. This is the VJ forum after all........runs for cover :hide:
  2. MrJustin

    MrJustin I've given money to VJForums

    Steve to be fair i feel like Tom has explained the situation pretty well, and while i'm with you most of the time as far as pay is concerned, i have to say that this is an exception to the rule.

    Given the reduced rate of the artists involved (and the loss incurred) to pay everyone 'fairly' would mean that either the ticket prices would have to be hiked up, meaning many couldnt afford to attend, or sponsorship whould have to be involved, either way, the festival does not take place in its current state.

    that seems to me like a bad thing.

    For one i look forward to hearing back from whoever might answer my email soon, as im keen to be involved- however you look at it, food for a weekend and £65 (price of your ticket) for a 1-2 hour set seems to me like a pretty damn good deal, all considered.

    Hopefully i'll see some of you there. :)
  3. vjpixylight

    vjpixylight AKA Will O' The Wisp

    I'd go, if it didn't cost me a grand to get over there and back;)
  4. SteveG

    SteveG Downstairs for Dancing

    Like I said Justin, not saying that Rocket is one of those who make money. At the end of the day however keep in mind that food and a ticket does not pay for your equipment upgrades or even insure your equipment. Then take into account personal insurance, expenses etc etc etc. Not to mention the many hours you've spent creating your material. I just allways feel VJ's are selling themselves so cheaply and many promoters and organisers must be having a good laugh at times.
  5. Rovastar

    Rovastar /..\

    Split this thread from the Rocket festival one. It was getting too derailed. Let's continue here
  6. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    <edit removed rocket specific stuff - i can't be bothered with justifying my involvement with rocket - i'm sure the majority know me and the things i do well enough to know that i'm not in the business of ripping off VJs)

    Lets have some basic fucking home truths here - VJing is not ever going to make you famous. VJing is not ever going to make you rich. The idea that VJs will band together and demand some kind of minimum payment is ridiculous (the day that happens is the day the promoter sacks you and buys a £20 dvd player to replace you) Their are fields of video work which will pay the bills and make you a decent living, club / festival VJing is not one of them and it never will be.

    rather than having a go at everyone like a bitter twisted old man you could diversify and move into more profitable areas - maybe you could do some conference / corporate AV or whatever? That way you might actually get to enjoy VJing on occasion rather than seeming like your just annoyed by doing a job you feel is taking the piss out of you.

    Please look around you! do you really think that anybody in the technical services field (sound engineers, vidiots, lampies etc) makes a good living from solely doing club and festival work? Clubs and festivals are notoriously badly paid and always have been - most of them simply cannot afford to pay corporate rates to their techies. we continue to work in these venues because it is more fun than doing only corporate work.

    And don't bother with the "VJs are artists" crap - when you can tell me that you have had 100 paying punters turn up to a gig just to see you perform.
  7. SteveG

    SteveG Downstairs for Dancing

    Firstly Tom , I did not have a go at you for being involved in this event. It's your and an individuals choice to do so. Personally I do diversify and get well paid for many of the jobs I do.

    Who metioned fame or getting rich? That's totally different from asking for fair pay. I may be a little older but certainly not twisted and enjoy what I do so I'll stick to it. It's not about how many you bring to the event, it's about what you add.

    When the promoters sack me and buy a £20 DVD player at least I hope the VJ who is supplying the discs asks for more than a ticket to the event and a few bob for doing so.

    In direct proportion then do you think the individuals who supply the equipment get paid on an equal footing as VJ's then? ie make the same loss or do the PA and lighting companies still make a small profit? For perhaps a weeks work prior to the event, the expense, the hours of work. It all deserves a better deal.

    By the way I was totally in the dark about "your involvement" with Rocket. Are you organising the VJ's?

    Edit: When I said recognised I meant as a contribution of value not as an individual (fame)
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2008
  8. hamageddon

    hamageddon Motion Mapping Looper

  9. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    why are you doing a weeks work preparing for a short festival VJ set? Really i don't understand your position. If your making a loss then why are you doing the work? The festivals that i do in the UK pay me to be there at about the same rate that the sound / lighting guys get. I get paid for the preproduction work that i do for these events.

    I don't understand why you cannot command the same rates (for the work that you do). If you've been commissioned to create animations for the event then charge a day rate for doing so. If you've not been commissioned to create stuff for the specific event then don't complain that you've not been paid for doing work that nobody asked you to do.

    If your just doing a 1-2 hour VJ set then it's not that valuable, £50 - £100 is a good wage for such a short set where you can turn up with a laptop and plug in to an existing setup. Getting a ticket in to a 3 day festival for an hours work is a good deal (ask the stewards how many hours they have to do for their ticket)

    If your suppling mixers, cameras, projectors, screens etc then charge a hire fee per item. if your rigging and supplying technical services (as opposed to a simple VJ set) then charge a day rate.

    VJing alone is not worth very much - providing visuals is and is not too badly paid (ie you'll get similar rates to the lighting and sound guys)
  10. SteveG

    SteveG Downstairs for Dancing

    Many of the VJ's do spend a lot of time creating for these events, whether just their own material or to start incorporating logos and requested themes, at times not allways asked for, normally it is expected for the level of fee offered. But at the end of the day the fees offered remain poor. In numerous threads you mention the 1-2hr VJ set....doesn't exist for most on this forum I wouldn't imagine. Yet most festivals offer a fee that would perhaps be acceptable if it were a daily or even hourly rate. Tickets for the event I'm afraid should not come into the equation. If you're only booked to do a 1-2hr set the orgainisers should be pleased your willing to stay and spend your money. If performing you should be asked how many guest slots you require for people who may be accompanying you ie a helper/assistant perhaps or even a driver.

    Are you organising the VJ's for the Rocket Festival?
  11. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    i'm one of the people helping to organize some of the visuals at rocket.

    A single guest would not be an unreasonable request if your doing a short festival VJ set. (which do exist - every single festival i've been to in the past 3 years has had multiple VJs doing short sets with the majority of them supplying no equipment and doing no setup / rigging) Trying to blag the fact that you need tickets for your wife, and assistant and a driver might work at some events - personally i'd laugh and tell you to catch the bus! Really your not a superstar (no vj is) and expecting to bring an entourage will lead to disappointment in the majority of cases.

    entry to the event on the day your playing should be taken as given (nobody pays to go to work after all) but on multiday festivals where there are day tickets available for sale then getting tickets to the days when your not performing is a bonus and could be viewed as a form of payment.

    as to people choosing to produce unrequested bespoke footage for events then if thats the way you choose to work then fair enough - personally i don't do this as it is a valuable additional income stream and festivals should be paying someone to produce their idents and logos rather than relying on VJs to do it for nothing.

    really if you want to suggest way of operating to VJs then suggesting people refuse to do gigs is somewhat foolish. I'd suggest a better starting point is that people do what they have agreed to without including loads of extras for free. If the promoters ask you to produce logos and idents then charge them for doing so (at a reasonable day rate for production £100 - £300 per day is about right for the UK festival market) If the promoter doesn't ask you to make these animations than ask him if he'll be supplying animated logos for the festival and if there are sponsor logos to be played. If he say yes they have them then try and get a day of production time to reformat the logos for projection (ie sort out the mess of dvds and dv tapes you'll get sent.) if he says they don't have animated festival logos ask him why not and offer the service of producing them for him. It's quite possible that he hasn't realized that he could charge sponsors for screen time so suggest that you could produce animated event branding and sponsor logos and that the sponsors could be charged for having their logos on screen.

    etc etc etc

    see the point that i'm making is that your treating VJing like it is DJing - a DJ with as little draw (in terms of getting punters to come to the event) as you have will not even get to play in the bar at most festivals. the certainly won't be getting any pay.

    so unless you actually want to be treated like an unknown DJ then stop asking to be treated like a DJ. Offer professional services and you might come away from a few festivals with a decent wage (not thousands of pounds but a fair wage for a fair amount of work)

    VJs who just want to turn up and do an hours set - fine thats great but your asking to be treated like a DJ - again your unknown so the most you should expect is £50 + your ticket in and some beers. Do unknown DJs complain that they had to spend loads of money on records and that they've spent ages at home learning to mix and that they should of been paid to practice their special festival DJ set? (well some of them might but you won't be seeing them at the next gig!!)
  12. Architects of Tomorrow

    Architects of Tomorrow Custom User Title

    Getting Paid

    I see you set sleepyTom off

    The way I see it is as follows - Either you are a vj to make money and support yourself or you are just doing side gigs, etc or just fucking off your time with this great medium -meaning playing around with visuals, experimenting, etc I myself fall into this catagory - Ok lets say you are going to do this professional - you BETTER be getting paid for your craft - if not you are just wasting your time - believe me i know - My real job is a streaming media company - we go out and do live event webcasting, etc. All i know is if you lowball your figure you are just setting yourself up for a screwing - again I speak from experience - I have fucked myself on events before with cost - last being 2 months ago - went to big island for a webcast - i accepted a price of $600 for 3 hours some save the whales event - me being the nice guy - fucking cheap for a three cam bs shoot - They did not have the budget for what i asked originally $1500.00 - Again still cheap for a live production. Me being the nice 'social Aware person" and it being christmas said - ok - End of story - I ended up breaking even on the project and wasting my time (did get to go to big island though)
    (I miss the hayday of the dotcoms - clients paid us stupid money for live productions - our going price was $2500 - $7500 per hour - no shit - those days are gone for the most part.

    My attitude is this - FUCK FREE WORK - unless you think you will get exposure and the truth is after the event - ask people who the vj was and you will get some shit like whats a vj?

    basically a VJ's is video production entity there to support the dj or event - Sad but true

    Just pisses me off on all sorts of levels
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2008
  13. SteveG

    SteveG Downstairs for Dancing

    OK Tom, I've read all you've posted above but there are grey areas in your train of though there to me. Taking your figures of £100-£300 per day for bespoke custom work and £50 for the 1hr-2hr set (which you now say is being asked to be treated like a DJ) what would you suggest a VJ fee should be for the VJ who... is asked to produce no custom work but VJ's for the entire day at a festival? and why therefore are you not offering that level of payment.

    If it is down to lack of budget and the money isn't there then why ask for the VJ's. Do you do your shopping on a sat morning, reach the check out and say sorry I havent got the budget for this really. Unfortunately you know there will allways be someone willing to do this work the individuals convinced it's going to help them progress, again unfortunately not the case normally.
  14. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    I'd say that a Vj who VJs all day (well lets say for all the evening slots rather than pretending it's a 9-5 thing!) should be on a day rate of between £100 - £300.

    why am I not offering £100-£300 per day for rocket? Because I don't have that budget and I don't need to employ VJs for whole days. So instead i'm saying that if a VJ wants to come to the festival anyway then they can have a short set(1 or 2 hours) in return they'll get a free ticket, some food and drink and get to have a really good fun time.

    As i've stated before - I do not need to make this offer to anybody. We are more than capable of running world class visuals in all the rocket venues without extending the invitation to come and be part of the event to people who I don't know. However I want to offer this opportunity to people as Rocket is really good fun and a great chance to meet many people who are involved in many other events (the majority of which are much better funded than rocket)

    And as it goes at the moment rocket has not made a public call out for VJs at all - so this is all a bit cart before horse.
  15. SteveG

    SteveG Downstairs for Dancing

    Thanks Tom that's fair enough and a good explanation. You know me I just hate people who try to take advantage and it's good that your offering the slots in this way. Hope it goes well and everyone enjoys it.
  16. Bokonon

    Bokonon SonicSlice

    I've got more regular paid work off the back of short, (easy) free festival sets than I have from anything else, if nothing else it's good exposure for what you do and it's easy(ier than a nightclub/gig) to speak directly to the artists who you have worked with and arrange to hook up and work with them again, in a more financially beneficial way.
  17. Gumby

    Gumby I've given money to VJForums

    I love it when people argue over the internet *ducks for cover*

    I agree with Tom.
  18. gnomatron

    gnomatron two5 studio

    Thing is, if the VJ wants money then a lot of the time people just won't bother having a VJ. You can't really do the same with the DJ, or the sound system, or even the lighting. VJs ideally need to be seen on the same level as lighting and sound systems - not the core performance, but not something you'd do a gig without. Mind you there's plenty promoters out there who don't give a f*** about lighting either.
  19. Gumby

    Gumby I've given money to VJForums

    Going back to the "were not artists" thing, if people don't appriciate VJ's as much as DJ's in term of (a lot of us) makeing our own content etc. whereas a lot of DJ's dont and just mix the same songs that everyone hears on the radio, then what hope is there for us? If we want people to appriciate real creativity and the content we make outselves then you can't perform them in Clubs, because the people there are not exactly your arty types.
    Your more likely to get a reputation from arty people because their more likely to come up to you and ask about all the stuff you've made yourselve, your gear, the processes etc. and about the idea of VJ being an art form.
    If you want people to appriciate VJ in the Club then maybe you should be playing video clips that people have seen everyday: TV, dare i say it PooTube, etc. surely that is the same as DJ's mixing the latest i dunno, Basshunter tune?

    "so called "arty" people also have higher standards then your average club goer who wants to be looking at something that looks like the stuff they just snorted of the toilet seat."
  20. SteveG

    SteveG Downstairs for Dancing

    OK...here we go then ;)

    Art farty people at times dont know their arse from their elbow when it comes to art or anything else for that matter. Many of them follow like sheep...whereas in a club you will perform in front of people from all walks of life and many very well educated in the arts.

    And that's just for agreeing with Tom :D

    Got to dash....second half's starting....Man Utd 2 Bolton 0 HT :D
  21. Bokonon

    Bokonon SonicSlice

    [devils advocate]Out of interest, in terms of making money out of them, what does that matter, we are regularly being told money is the new art criticism so if thats the case, what they know or don't know doesn't really matter - because what you want them to do is show you the money...[/devils advocate]
  22. asterix

    asterix IMAGINEER

    A free ticket is not payment imho - it is a given.

    I'll play free for a charity event with a cause I believe in, but at the end of the day if the DJ's get paid - I should get paid. If I choose to play for the love - so be it.

    Clubs and festivals DO make good money, but have inherently high risk (which is why most of them are underwritten). They are business entities existing for profit. IF they aren't making money they are particularly bad businesses, and I don't see why you should subsidise them or any other business unless they are subsidising the community (hence charity events). And in fact it is these scenarios where you need to charge to support your hobby (if its only that!!)

    I think the arguement that no-one will ever go to an event just to see visuals hence you shouldn't get paid much is fkn weak and you are belittling your own personal worth. Who here hasn't gone to a gig mostly to see visuals?

    A measly few hundred pounds is chicken feed to a festival - you want to know what they pay in pli, advertising, promotion, staging? They can and will try everything possible to get as much for cheap or free to offset their risk. Hey I'd like a new $15,000 laminator for my business - anyone want to subsidise me?

    Welcome to the real world where nothing is truly free. Are you the one being charged?
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2008
  23. asterix

    asterix IMAGINEER

    Here are some questions I put to a commercial festival - that rely's alot on volunteers. They don't just make coin off the festival, but the satellite festivals throughout the year. They are big enough to have little to no advertising budget, and attract 10,000 punters paying $150 each (three days which is pretty cheap).

    " is there any basic remuneration for vj's? I understand the importance of volunteering to any like minded event. However we invest thousands in equipment, thousands of hours in content creation and are artists in our own right. If you can't get remunerated at larger events like rsf - where else can vj's find support to sustain and cultivate our artform (just like dj's, rental co's and other performers do)"
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2008
  24. annaponda

    annaponda New Member

    well said Asterix,

    I do remember that the festival that sparked this splinter thread had the same line last year, were good guy's, blah blah...who cares. Personaly any festival that acts this cheap just should'nt bother with visuals at all...then well see theyre worth and value, the punters are going to be very disapointed, I'm sure they will because it's a given now days to be intertained audio visualy. And, half of them might not return next year.... it's a false economy ...peanut = monkey

    I suppose the toilet cleaners also do it for a ticket and free meal?

    sorry guys, youre taking the piss... it sucks
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2008
  25. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    in the case of the rocket festival then yes actually they do.

    Maybe it's time for you to stop being so fucking rude and insulting - maybe your not interested in contributing a little time and effort to be involved in a really good event which doesn't pay you. So fine don't do it then - but don't tell me i'm taking the piss.

    have you got any fucking idea at all how much time effort and money I have personally put into projects which don't pay me, simply for the benefit of people who i've never met? maybe you'll take a look at the very site your posting your insults on. how come it still works? who setup the server it's running on? who co-ordinates paying for it so that it's still here tomorrow?

    so sorry that you don't want to be part of my favorite event of the year - sorry that you feel i'm taking the piss. but frankly your taking the fucking piss by having the audacity to post such comments. You have no understanding at all of the type of event the rocket is or the history of the people who work fucking hard to make it happen. If you did you'd not be posting your idiotic opinions here.

    As i've repeatedly stated before - I do not need to make this offer to anybody. We are more than capable of running world class visuals in all the rocket venues without extending the invitation to come and be part of the event to people who I don't know. However I want to offer this opportunity to people as Rocket is really good fun and a great chance to meet many people who are involved in many other events (the majority of which are much better funded than rocket)
  26. videoswitchboard

    videoswitchboard Pointless Crew-Glasgow

    I think Tom made his point and there isn't much more to add.

    I'm very likely to go - looking forward to work my arse off at it.

    For anybody who's been going to/ organising Free Parties, i believe this system makes total sense. A little bit of budget is better than none at all, it keeps the greedy bastards away whilst retaining a similar family vibe.
    There is also the "Rome wasn't built in a day" long term effect. With so many festivals growing into monsters within a couple of years, it's nice to think that a gig can start small and let the various crews establish good working relations and trust- which should help with its long term success. Hopefully, the day this festival makes money, those who helped at the start won't be forgotten.

    sorry, posted this before seeing Tom's answer,
    Tom, i can understand you getting angry but i think there's no need for the abuse.
    The difference of views, practices and the fragmentation scene is actually a good source of fertility, and the best protection for small specialised events such as the Rocket to retain their integrity- you and me will view it as these people's own loss but we can't force them to see it our way.

    Everybody should eventually gain from doing free gigs as it's a source of promotion (same as spending time on VJF), and those who are being militant about VJ fees are doing us a favor too.

    Ana: the flights to the rocket are about £40 at the mo... sure you can't be tempted?

    Last edited: Mar 20, 2008
  27. gavspav

    gavspav New Member

    Speaking as someone who would love to go to the Rocket but they can't afford to pay my transport and i can't afford to go I think its quite simple.

    Someone makes you an offer (£1000 a night or just a ticket - it doesn't matter) and you decide whether to accept it or not. End of Story.

    Some festivals are Mean Fiddlers making loads of cash but most (like the Rocket) aren't - so as long as the organisers don't say they'll pay but then rip you off whats the problem?

    As an organiser you have to have someone to clean the toilets/pay the police/build a massive high fence that makes it seem like a prison/book acts which are going to sell tickets.

    You do not have to book unknown acts/pay people to provide visuals/hire bizarre interactive entertainment experiences.

    So its just a case of budget priorities.

    I have been known to moan about the fact that you can't blag security to come for nothing but you can blag artists/hippes etc but thats the way it is. No way would I ever want to be a festival organiser - it looks like a nightmare.

    Anyway Festivals are all about being outdoors - who cares about VJ's at a festival!!

  28. Rovastar

    Rovastar /..\

    Let’s try and keep this thread on the general issue of doing free festival gigs.

    It is a general issue and I think worthwhile of debate.

    If a big festival request themselves via visual co-ordinator/VJ, etc for a festival the

    I have said before I think these are the few days of the year (like new years eve) that VJs can actually make some money.

    They have spend ten, hundreds of thousands or million on the screens and visual infrastructure I think it is fair to have a proportion of that on paying people to put stuff up on the screens.

    I wonder what percentage of the ‘door take’ is for visuals and then how much of that goes on hardware / hire companies.

    My worries for free visuals at big events like festivals is 2 are:

    a) It can cheapen our worth.
    b) Others seem to get paid.
    c) Word gets around the big players that even big gigs have 0 visual budget.

    I would love to see a breakdown of how much the lighting budget, Music budget, Visual budget, etc is.

    I worry Tom that if the general budget increased in future years the visual and specifically the VJ budget for such events will not be increased. At least not significantly. A 100% increase of a VJ budget will still be 0.

    I believe that any extra money will go into other areas and I find that sad.

    I find it more disappointing at festival that ‘claim’ to having strong visual/artistic credentials and they have no budget apparently for anything like this.

    I understand that some do not make money. Some, frankly, deserve too lose money dis(m)asterpeace, antiworld, etc.There are some great festivals with limited budgets and I understand that.

    If really that is an issue (and often I do not believe them) I would urge the people with influence to obtain a more reasonable budget for the visuals and maybe distribute the money better.

    I would rather see some stages without visuals and the hire/time budget for those screens spent giving a little back to the VJ artist for performing maybe extra for custom content creation – maybe festival themed content or logos, etc. It is not like music acts ever do theme/custom song content is it.

    On another level I do disagree with your valuations on how much VJs are worth? I sadly think that if you did have a proper and reasonable budget you would only pay VJs a little, as it is a festival and they get free tickets. Would you get a giant LED wall and pay everyone £100 which would not even cover travel? :p ;)

    It all depends on if you see VJing gigs as a job or not. There are some here that are trying and to a degree succeeding in making this a living or a significant proportion of their income. When an offer of a big capacity festival or superclub, etc suggest that VJ do a free gig some people understandably think it is cheeky and audacious.

    I discount the argument that you only want the money and don’t do anything for free I cannot think of a single VJ that does not doesn’t regularly do something free and has done loads already.

    I would say lets see festival gigs as a job first I often think ‘big’ gigs just use inexperienced (and experienced) VJs as they will do the gig on the promise of good exposure, etc and are blinded by it all. It is worthwhile when ‘big’ gigs request VJ for free/little money this other point of view. You know some festivals do try and get all they can from the VJs.

    And I do think there are enough justifiable positive benefits to get paid and make a living from VJing. And being away for 4-5 days at a festival where you are ‘working’ (I know you might only be on for 2 hours but there are many other hours of time that go into getting there in the first place)

    Festival gigs are often awkward to get to, not likely to be in your local area sometimes a lot of travel time/expense required, increased security/damage risks attached, etc conversely they can be good fun and have a break.

    Actually a related question Tom – you said before that agents demand a fee for the musical artist therefore they do not work for free. Do they also demand a fee for charity gigs?
  29. SteveG

    SteveG Downstairs for Dancing

    Yes they do normally John but the luckier more persuasive you are the bigger the percentage discount you are likely to recieve. At the end of the day they have to survive too....but then again so do VJ's.

    Here's a quote which annoys me a little from Michael Evis:

    "In addition to all of this, the company actively pursues the objective of making a profit. And in so doing is able not only to make improvements to the site, but also to distribute large amounts of money to Greenpeace, Oxfam, Water Aid and other humanitarian causes which enhance the fabric of our society. In the running of the event the Festival deliberately employs the services of these organisations, increasing the amounts they can raise towards their objectives."

    On the back of VJ's amongst other Michael.

    Knowing what I know now I would happily return to Glastonbury for 50% of my normal fee. Until this is offered I shall not return.
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2008
  30. john01

    john01 5 quids worth of italics

    I think the root of this problem is creative people tend not to be good at money and evaluating their own worth. However people who are motivated by money and not art tend to see profit as the mark of success.

    So VJing, like a lot of things associated with the creative side of life tend not to pay well if at all, but they do look good on a CV and will help get you a more mundane but better paying job. It sucks but that's the way it goes. In the words of Misty in Roots "Nowhere man can be free from money the controller"
    However market forces dictate and actually the discipline of running an event where everyone gets paid is positive. My assistant is currently doing a charity job, as a large corporation we are obliged to do our bit for the community he got the short straw. Predictably the poor lad is suffering because the people he is dealing with are well meaning but incompetent. In my experience this is common, relying on people's better nature tends to lead to sloppy innefficiency, in Japan we call it "amaeru", to impose childishly on someone else's tolerance.

    The art is to make the controller a positive force, even if you can only pay a token amount I think it is important to make the effort.

    I think you should make that contributed italics thing on the screen name monthly
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 14, 2013

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