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VJ learning - Opportunity

Discussion in 'Talk with VJs' started by SteveG, Feb 7, 2011.

  1. SteveG

    SteveG Downstairs for Dancing

    Sorry if anybody was remotely interested. I've decided not to offer this opportunity as some would see fit to accuse me of trying like a dodgy promoter to take advantage of you.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2011
  2. Pixelseed

    Pixelseed New Member

    Sounds cool with some nice mentoring opportunities. Too bad I'm across the pond. :(
     
  3. Pesh

    Pesh Pixel Tosser

    £50,000 in ticket sales for a club based awards ceremony but they won't pay for a camera op? you should definitely give them your budget blagging promoters speech ;)
     
  4. SteveG

    SteveG Downstairs for Dancing

    I did Pesh and that's why I'm installing a triple screen for the 3rd time in 2 months, an install that the club had never seen, been offered or used before. Strange as it's been open so long. Not many clubs which have not got the install are stretching their budget to do so. I can live without a camera operator I normally do. The club have tripled their VJ budget since I returned to the club.
    My blagging speech aint that bad;)
     
  5. Pesh

    Pesh Pixel Tosser

    so you've got the promoters to triple their outlay but your asking for an unpaid runner on here?
     
  6. SteveG

    SteveG Downstairs for Dancing

    Tell you what Pesh as I really can't be arsed replying again to you or any others who may try to jump on the band wagon or try to justify why I put the offer up the the first place I'll just remove it. Anybody who may have enjoyed the opportunity have you to thank. And I wont bother replying to any who may comment on my decision to remove it either. I will not be accused of taking advantage of people if that's the way some wish to view it. I suggest you now go and read as to what Tom has been suggesting.
     
  7. Pesh

    Pesh Pixel Tosser

    i'm not jumping on any bandwagon, i think these types of offers are a good thing, i'm just pointing out the way i see it after the entire Bloc thread.

    same old same old.

    'we've installed everything, most of the slots are filled by people being paid properly, we just want you to turn up, have a go, fill a bit of dead space, get some experience, 'network', no money available.'

    i don't have a problem with any of that. it was you that was mental about it when Bloc offered unpaid work.

    i just think people should get paid fairly when there is obviously money about.

    'never work for free when the bloke at the top is going home in a limo / bmw'
     
  8. SteveG

    SteveG Downstairs for Dancing

    Well, you obviously didn't read the fucking offer. It was stated clearly they were expected to do nothing "although help is always appreciated". You've blown it for me though Pesh I'm afraid. I wont be offering again.
     
  9. Pesh

    Pesh Pixel Tosser

    i did read it, including the bit about the persons responsibilities...

    re aligning knocked over DJ cams, operating a Z1, covering your piss breaks etc.

    personally i think you should stick the offer back up and see if you could re-assign a few quid out of your own budget. not much, just enough to cover travel etc.

    you know the only reason i pulled you up on this was down to the way you treated the Bloc promoters when they commented on here and Elliot in the first place.

    i don't mind people working for free if they're getting something they want out of it. i thought you did.
     
  10. SteveG

    SteveG Downstairs for Dancing

    Responsibilities if they wish to accept them, as I had stated at the start I've done this gig myself and they were expected to do nothing supply nothing, they would have drunk all night and been free to do as they wish, watch and pick up some tips or dance and socialise in the VIP area as that's where I'll be set up, help me in and out if they wish....If I have to put it in "Janet and John" speak for you I'll spell it out. You've sickened me of ever offering anything like this again.

    Just for your information I normally offer cash to anybody who comes along. An offer that all have refused in the past Pesh...I don't advertise that or broadcast it. People would come for the wrong reasons.

    Like I say though I won't be offering again Pesh thanks to you. Perhaps you could stick up an offer to replace mine. If we can't trust each other then I think were on a looser with Tom's theory too. To say I'm pissed off would be an understatement.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2011
  11. Pesh

    Pesh Pixel Tosser

    you'll get over it Steve :)

    come on, theres no need to flounce, if you spend a month railing against someone else for offering some unpaid work at a professional level event you have got to expect some flack when you make a similar offer.
     
  12. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    Steve do you not get the irony here?

    Whilst Pesh has taken a fairly easy shot at you it was aimed at maybe getting you to see things from a different angle.

    A "promoter" who wants a couple of VJs to come to Bloc gets called all manor of names with people who are long term experienced VJs claiming that they are exploiting and harming not only individual VJs but the whole VJ culture.

    Your "offer" of "work experience" is on the face of it very similar to what Bloc were offering. In your now deleted post you implied that in-spite of getting an increased budget you could not afford to pay even expenses, nor offer a lift to the event. You say that whoever comes to help won't have that much to do, they just need to keep an eye on some kit, operate a camera for you and then maybe do a bit of VJing too.

    This could be a great opportunity for someone at the start of their video career, but again that is no different from Bloc (which is also a good opportunity for a newbie). I have no doubt that both the promoters and yourself are making a profit from the Hard Dance Awards, yet neither of you are willing to spread this wealth to people you feel do not deserve it (ie a newbie who doesn't have the experience to really charge for their work).

    Just as you take offence at VJs getting exploited by Bloc others may take offence at your attitude towards camera operators. Personally I would be wary of any event which said that it "didn't need" camera operators but was offering "work experience" to people including camera operation. If i were budgeting the event they would get camera operators long before they got TH2Go installs. I see camera operation as a seriously skilled job, and I would not do an award ceremony without at least one pro camera op.

    ---

    Maybe you can see things from both sides of the fence now? I hope that future opportunities offered on this forum can be treated with at least some respect, rather than the frankly offensive attitude we have seen recently. If people want to question the details of an opportunity here then I have no problem with that, but please can you keep the name calling and accusations of profiteering and exploitation to yourself?

    Put simply one man's exploitation is another man's big break. So rather than jumping on every offer which doesn't meet your own pay requirements you could simply walk away and let others make of it what they will.
     
  13. Scratchpole

    Scratchpole Hmm still thinking...

    A reasonable offer squandered!

    A token payment to cover expenses was all you needed to add in my opinion Steve.
    Maybe you could also have suggested that it would be most suitable for someone in Yorkshire or the midlands in order to keep travel expenses to a minimum.

    Tom a work shadow/experience opportunity with a fellow VJ is very different to the offer Bloc put on the table.
     
  14. SteveG

    SteveG Downstairs for Dancing

    You talk some utter bollocks at times Tom. You are totally out of touch with UK clubbing. My post stated basic but busy club night, it's not the £ucking MTV music awards...Pro camera Ops ffs.

    I posted the offer as I'm fed up reading posts from people who talk a good show yet produce nothing and we see nothing. I was proving a point actually after all your talk of such offers of help and mentorship being a good thing, I thought I would. ALl talk and no underpants as my Granny used to say Tom.

    I still stick to what I have always said, pay the VJ a fair fee. My offer was asking for nothing. It was the individuals choice whether to come along only to watch learn about some equipment....your big ideas by the way not mine. They would have perhaps had a chance to learn and perform.

    I don't see there being irony, I wasn't looking for performing VJ's....Do you need a "Janet and John" explanation too....with pictures perhaps.
     
  15. SteveG

    SteveG Downstairs for Dancing

    Thanks Joe, Normally there is an offer of some kind. I introduce the VJ's to the promoters DJ's whoever I can. In other words I do what I can and what I can afford to do. I try to secure larger budgets at every venue to bring in more VJ's. Some negative half wits wont believe that though until they hear it will they.

    Cheers anyway joe.

    Anyway, I'll take a break form here it's just too negative....all talk and no underpants. See ya soon.
     
  16. unjulation

    unjulation Moderator

    indead it is a diferant experiance but i wouldnt get hung up about the particulars of a bit of language -

    i dont think there is anytrhing wrong with what tom has said -

    and it is a shame that you have removed your offer steve because fundermentaly what you were/are trying to do is great but if you change the language then you are asking an indevidual a very simmerler deal to premotors are asking that you are moaning about -

    thats why - if i am honest i dont moan about premotors asking for peeps for free - i can only ever pay basick wages but i can give them a space to play -

    :pint:
     
  17. Scratchpole

    Scratchpole Hmm still thinking...

    It was fundamentally different to a promoter asking for a VJ.
    No kit. No content. No preparation. No risk.... (Unless Steve was driving you home ;) )
     
  18. unjulation

    unjulation Moderator

    ok...... -

    but i would surgest that anyone who replys to an advert hear has a 75% chance of haveing some loops - i might be wrong but? -
     
  19. skulpture

    skulpture www.grahamthorne.co.uk

    I will keep it simple....

    1) I have worked with Steve approx 6/7 times now.
    2) I have learnt how to use V4/V8/DVJ's/CG-8/Multi switcher(s)/After Effects Tips/Plug ins and much more; including many pro cameras.
    3) Steve has offered me money on the night (I think once I took £20 to cover my train)
    4) Steve has offered to give me a lift every time - I have been to coalleville and it really is in the middle of nowhere!! Would cost him a fortune to via away to pick someone up!
    5) Steve ALWAYS spends time to show and teach people, like myself all sorts of tips and tricks.
    6) Steve has then told promoters to hire me!
    7) Steve has chucked me many a free clip to experiment with!
    8) Steve has bought me drinks and food everytime!
    9) He personally introduces me to promoters and DJ's; helping me to get work in the future.
    10) I could go on... you get the idea.

    What else could somebody want?! Especially a new user looking for experience/on the job education and a bloody good night.

    Now I don't care if you all think I am kissing Steve's arse... he's a f*cking nice bloke and if you search the forums he has ALWAYS asked for people to come along see whats going on and have a chat, check out his VJ gear. This is nothing new so he's hardly a hypocrite.

    Too many of you sit on this forum and chat chat chat, read manuals and talk the talk. Lets see some you 'pro' VJ's help the newer VJ's, invite us to gigs and share your knowledge.

    Any new VJ's/students or similar: ignore the idiots - if you can make this event then GO!

    //rant over//
     
  20. unjulation

    unjulation Moderator

    i agree with you mate see previouses posts but it still doesnt change the ironey of it all and then the next step :rolleyes:
     
  21. skulpture

    skulpture www.grahamthorne.co.uk

    I know mate you also made a good point which is true.

    But what Irony? A huge festival wanting free VJ's and a guy offering to teach people? No comparison.

    AGAIN: Bloc Party people I LOVE you and what you do...
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2011
  22. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    Basic club night with 2500 punters paying £20 per head. £50,000 is quite a door take by club standards.
    I'm not talking about paying broadcast rates for camera ops, I understand the smaller budget event quite well i think these days, but it is as you would say a matter of principle.

    I'm in no way begrudging your offer to have work experience people along, as you know it is something that I do myself and will continue to do as i've met some great people this way. However there is always the danger that by supplying people for free promoters "get more than they pay for" and thus you devalue your own professional services. It is a tricky balance to get right, allowing people the space to learn in whilst maintaining professional standards. This is where i feel your offer was a little amiss in that to properly cover the event you NEED an operated camera. It's not really possible to do an awards event with only locked off cameras. And certainly having an operator will make the difference between a adequate show and a potentially great show.

    As i've previously stated I would always employ a cameraman before getting in extra screens as after all what use are the extra screens if the content (ie camera shots) on them is a load of pap?

    This ties into the bigger things we've been talking about, collectives working together to create bigger better shows which justify higher budgets to promoters. Many of the people that i regularly work with are camera guys. I see their job as at least as skilled as VJing, to become a good cameraman require years of experience and access to expensive equipment. It troubles me to see their work degraded just as it troubles you to see VJs work degraded. The solution isn't to replace them with vollenteers but to be in a position where by you as a collective can provide the full package to events. If you were also doing the event filming and producing the clips that they will want to have up on youtube then you'd have the budegt to employ some cameramen and I'd have no issue at all with you taking along some additional work experience people to learn from yourself and your experienced camera crew.
     
  23. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    Bloc is not a huge festival.
    Their offer was accommodation and 2x tickets to the event in return for a couple of hours VJing for a support act.

    Hard Dance Awards is a big clubnight.
    Steve's offer was to help out as an assistant technician and camera operator, presumably for the duration of the event, with the promise of learning / having a go on his kit.

    The thing that makes it ironic is that Steve has so overstated his argument that ALL VJS MUST BE PAID!
    Yet he seemingly wants an unpaid technician / assistant under the guise of "work experience" to help him with his profitable VJ business at a profitable club night.

    "you don't need to bring any content" is a double edged sword, many people starting out would love to take some of their own clips to an event such as HDA or Bloc.

    Thus Irony....

    Personally I hope that Steve gets a work experience person for HDA and the Bloc give some new VJs the chance to perform at their festival. I think that BOTH these things are beneficial to VJs and that without such chances to get experience the entire scene would stagnate.

    What I don't get is the attitude which says the VJs must be paid under any circumstances where as cameramen, technicians and assistance can all work for "the experience"
     
  24. Rovastar

    Rovastar /..\

    However if this is your stance how come you don't pull Bloc up on the travel expenses situation?!?

    Tom,

    You know this type of offer is different. It is for new VJ that want to learn the ropes. They are not VJing. They will get a chance to play with different kit, etc I am sure you and others have let people starting out play with your kit. It is all about the sharing. I cannot be bothered to wade through all those old threads about this but I thought this is the sort of offer you wanted??! New Vjs to get into the scene. Also he is happy doing it all himself. Oh and this is not www.cameramanforums.com......

    I know it is cheap and easy to compare this to Bloc but you know it is not the same at all.

    The Bloc offer was disgraceful. Wanting a (and implying an experienced and the best) VJ to provide everything (content, equipment, etc) for no pay and saying there was no budget at all for any VJs. Yes, it sounded better (not great but much better) and more reasonable once they had their heads banged against the wall to get the correct information out of them but it took people asking questions to do this. Also others jumped say I didn't get paid previous years, etc, etc.

    Nothing about the role is for new and inexperienced VJs who would be mentored throughout the night.

    Hell, Steve's offer will be like a VJ course to some. I though many here would support that......
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2011
  25. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    That was not their offer nor was it ever stated like that.
    They never asked for the VJ to provide any kit.
    They never said nobody was getting paid for VJing there.

    These assumptions were put into their mouths by people who throw shit around every time anyone posts an offer which doesn't instantly appeal to a professional VJ. The way in which Joe replied was disgraceful and deeply unprofessional given that Bloc were former clients of his. It set the tone for the full onslaught which followed.

    In the majority of cases the "terrible exploitative offer" in the low/no pay section turns out to be at least a partial case of poor information, lacking the full details and thus not allowing people to fairly judge the offer. Sadly though because people choose to shoot first and ask questions later these threads often turn sour and by my reading are giving ALL VJs a bad reputation.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2011
  26. Rovastar

    Rovastar /..\

    Sorry the equipment I was referring to was your computer, etc whereas Steve will provide everything.

    I am sorry Tom you are mistaken but it is very clear that no VJs are going to get paid by Bloc in the initial posts. I suggest that you read it again.

    Here is the actual post for you.
    http://vjforums.com/showpost.php?p=270094&postcount=6

    Obviously the bands/acts can employ their own......

    I am sticking by the fact that their offer was stated like I said.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2011
  27. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    Which was the wrong information.

    BLOC never said that no VJs were getting paid at their event, Elliot did which was a massive mistake. I would of thought that given its quite a small scene in the Uk more people might of tried to actually clarify the situation rather than rip his head off. But as we can see in that thread their is fuck all respect between UK VJs.

    I actually find this massively sad and boring that we are still having these discussions.
     
  28. PCProject

    PCProject Moderator

    I know this post isnt going to help but I feel there has been a degree of foot shooting in this thread.

    Steve was the first person to make a positive step toward helping somebody gain useful experience despite the irony of the offer.

    To get to where we have is sad. Especially so with regard to this when put in context with the thread on how VJs can/could work towards increasing a skill set to further a career step.

    Shame on us, innit.
     
  29. sleepytom

    sleepytom VJF Admin

    init...


    Pesh took a cheap shot, but Steve shouldn't be so quick to react like that. Maybe we can all learn something from this?


    Ultimately the main lesson of this thread is that talk is cheap, it's easy to pick holes in someone else's offers which they are making IN GOOD FAITH. Maybe if we were a little slower to jump to conclusions and accuse people of exploitation then the world would be a better place. At least find out the proper facts before you shoot people down in flames.

    Constantly attacking anyone with a low / no budget gig just puts people off from offering work here regardless of the budget. I'd much rather have lots of jobs posted on the forum even if the occasional bad offer come through, than have situation where by nobody posts jobs for fear of a roasting...
     
  30. PCProject

    PCProject Moderator

    Pesh and Steve should kiss and make up (no tongues is fine) and the rest of us bystanders need to walk away from this thread a little bit wiser.
     

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